Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 With Cisse, however, his objection to Wonga is said to be on the basis of his religion. His religion finds money lending FULL STOP objectionable and unacceptable, so if he's using Wonga as an example of an unacceptable company to have on his shirt, then surely he must also object to any other commercial lender, and that wasn't the case for him last year. I think that's well summed up. I'm no expert on Islam or interpretations thereof but if you are taking a principled stance then by definition that principle must be consistent. Wonga are not a bank. It's entirely possible to reconcile your religious beliefs with an understanding that what a high street bank does, I imagine it's a completely different beast to have to do the same with a company that pray exclusively on the financially vulnerable and make a f***ing bundle out of doing so. I totally agree and I think you and I are on the same page, for the most part. It's simply a slightly pedantic but very important interpretation that if there is an objection to interest-bearing institutions full stop, then playing in the Barclays Premier League (wearing that logo) while also wearing a Virgin Money logo should also be objectionable. Particularly as barclays have a famous track record of having defrauded investors out of billions through LIBOR-fixing and other rigging games. I suspect there must be a strong moral and religious objection to having to represent, even very indirectly, such an institution. But Cisse did and has done. If he simply finds it personally objectionable, then so be it. Sevilla did allow Freddie Kanoute to wear an unbranded shirt when they had a gambling sponsor. But if it is a strictly religious stance, I'm struggling to reconcile it with the others as religion - if you are a strict believer, as Cisse seems to be - is very much about principle and hard and fast laws/rules. based on what? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I said this 5 weeks ago, this needed to be solved before he came back to pre-season but the fucking clowns running the club obviously don't have a clue. Should have offered your diplomatic services on a consultancy basis, neesy. I'm sure the club has made absolutely no effort to discuss the issue with Cisse, despite the multitude of press saying the exact opposite. Zzzzz. Typical Response by a clown. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Weezertron Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 They should get rid of sponsors all together. Unless you're in the top 4 they're all 3rd rate loan and betting companies, and I'm not sure we even benefit from the small amount they give us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 @CaulkinTheTimes 8m Nufc are flying to Portugal at around 5pm today: Papiss Cisse will not be accompanying them because of Wonga sponsorship dispute. Just in case we need a national press voice on it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 're kanoute and sevilla. He did eventually where the advertising. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 But if it is a strictly religious stance, I'm struggling to reconcile it with the others as religion - if you are a strict believer, as Cisse seems to be - is very much about principle and hard and fast laws/rules. I'm not sure this is quite true, every part of scripture is open to interpretation and many people have different views on it. Especially when applied to modern situations and concepts that didn't exist when it was written. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I'm all for players having the freedom to express their personal beliefs, but not selectively. If he had a moral objection to interest-bearing loans, then he shouldn't have worn a Virgin Money shirt. There's a substantial difference in Islam between banks lending money with reasonable interest rates and financial institutions that exhibit flat out usury (what muslims call 'Riba'). Most commercial banks are used by Muslims as they also offer shariah compliant financing; having Virgin money on a t-shirt is - in an Islamic sense- a moral grey area. However the extent to which Wonga adds interest to its loans makes it extremely haraam- there is no moral grey area- and any practicing Muslim would well in his/her rights to refuse to help advertise such "sinful"and "unethical" operations. That's interesting, and I appreciate the added insight. It's a really thorny issue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Well if he won't wear the top and we do end up selling him, it puts Wonga in an awkward situation and they won't want to come out of this badly . . . So will be looking forward to them ploughing loads of money on for Rooney. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 @CaulkinTheTimes 8m Nufc are flying to Portugal at around 5pm today: Papiss Cisse will not be accompanying them because of Wonga sponsorship dispute. Just in case we need a national press voice on it. I wonder if his source is just the other tweet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Moody Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Bet you Shola is the real man behind this. Cisse doesn't know what's going on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I'm struggling to reconcile it with the others as religion - if you are a strict believer, as Cisse seems to be - is very much about principle and hard and fast laws/rules. based on what? His more intense response to this issue. I'll admit none of us can know the depth of his level of belief. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 If this lingers on we'll need to keep Shola, just incase. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Get the feeling he is being badly advised over this and this is not his own opinion and its going to hurt his career. I respect anyone making a strand for what they believe in however its making him look a little daft as all of the other Muslim players are wearing the kit. Wonder what Ba would have done had he still been here. That doesn't count for a single thing. You have no idea what are the other players beliefs are other than that they are muslim? True but he is saying it is against his Muslim faith to wear the Wonga logo Not all Muslims are the same, man. No shit Sherlock. may be wrong but I am sure most of Muslim faith respect the part of Islam that is giving Cisee the dilemma. May be wrong here but I think all Muslims also do not gamble, yes Cisee does, I have Muslim friends some are totally devoted some will choose not to be so strict on their devotion to their religion. Would seem Cisse is like this so lets hope he can find a way to live with wearing the Wonga logo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Well if he won't wear the top and we do end up selling him, it puts Wonga in an awkward situation and they won't want to come out of this badly . . . So will be looking forward to them ploughing loads of money on for Rooney. I'm not sure NUFC should be borrowing £30m off Wonga like. I've heard their interest rates are pretty high. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 He's probably not travelling to Portugal because he's fasting during Ramadan. I know it's not such a juicy story but IMO that's probably the likely reason rather than the Wonga business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 He's probably not travelling to Portugal because he's fasting during Ramadan. I know it's not such a juicy story but IMO that's probably the likely reason rather than the Wonga business. I think we're past the point of trying to dress this up, like. There's no doubt at all that it's down to the Wonga issue now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 He's probably not travelling to Portugal because he's fasting during Ramadan. I know it's not such a juicy story but IMO that's probably the likely reason rather than the Wonga business. I'm sure some of the other players are on Ramadan as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Flipping heck McCormick, I watched a documentary on Islamic banking and done a little research and never once did it say a little bit usury is ok, but just a little. Also as for the virgin do islamic mortgages aswell argument, that counts for little, like the animal liberation front saying McDonald's is ok cos they do salads aswell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Flipping heck McCormick, I watched a documentary on Islamic banking and done a little research and never once did it say a little bit usury is ok, but just a little. Also as for the virgin do islamic mortgages aswell argument, that counts for little, like the animal liberation front saying McDonald's is ok cos they do salads aswell. You just don't like him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Cisse point about Wonga is fair and valid, but it's laughable when he breaks several other of his religions rules because he enjoys them. The whole things a joke and for once i'm not blaming the club. Religious people break "rules" all the time. I wonder how many of the 2.2 billion Christians across the globe sell their daughters into slavery, or go around killing people who work on a Sunday. Well thats a helpful line of nonsense, but if religious people break the rules often, they are also hypocrites, as are most human beings to be honest. It's not though is it? You say it's laughable that religious people break "rules", yet religion evolves and scripture gets rewritten and repurposed. You seem to be suggesting that religious people should follow the "rules" blindly without using their own moral compass. And if they don't then they're hypocrites, which is just daft. I'm usually the last person to stand up and defend the madness of religion but I wholeheartedly understand why someone, religious or not, might object to playing with an advert for a payday loan company emblazoned across their shirt but go out and gamble, or be able to find it in themselves to play with the Virgin Money logo on their chest. I meant laughable in the respect of using one reason not to do something, yet breaking another. You can't both ways if you do that. And that is exactly what Cisse is doing. It's hypocritical and wrong. And yes religious people should blindly follow their the rules for their chosen religion, not just follow what they like to and what they don't, or what's the point in the first place. Or what you could do is not believe the utter nonsense and rubbish in the first place. Tbh i'm sick of hearing about religion and faith to do with this or just about anything in life, it's complete bollocks and the day religion dies is a day that can't come too soon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Icke - Son of God Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 Flipping heck McCormick, I watched a documentary on Islamic banking and done a little research and never once did it say a little bit usury is ok, but just a little. Also as for the virgin do islamic mortgages aswell argument, that counts for little, like the animal liberation front saying McDonald's is ok cos they do salads aswell. When do you get your PhD? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shays Given Tim Flowers Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I'm struggling to reconcile it with the others as religion - if you are a strict believer, as Cisse seems to be - is very much about principle and hard and fast laws/rules. based on what? His more intense response to this issue. I'll admit none of us can know the depth of his level of belief. I'm sorry if I seem pedantic about it its just until we really know why Cisse is objecting to Wonga it seems silly to keep on saying he is a hypocrite (not you specifically). Many, many posters on here objected to Wonga becoming our sponsor. I assume some of those objectors were not theists but rather people concerned with the unscrupulous business Practice. Cisse seems to have an acute sense of humanity not displayed by a lot of footballers. If you have ever seen him talk about his time driving an ambulance in Senegal it is abundantly clear that he is someone who cares about people. Similarly the stories surrounding him and his involvement with charities and also just people in general in the North East indicate somebody who is very much a good guy. Conversely his recreational activities that are now well documented are not those of a strict Muslim with a black and white view of the world. This leads me to believe it is entirely plausible he has a strong personal objection to being associated with this brand. For these reasons I am currently reluctant to criticise his stance. My fear however is that this may mean he cannot have a future at the football club. Either way I know who I prefer as a representative of NUFC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bimpy474 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 I'm struggling to reconcile it with the others as religion - if you are a strict believer, as Cisse seems to be - is very much about principle and hard and fast laws/rules. based on what? His more intense response to this issue. I'll admit none of us can know the depth of his level of belief. Yet he gambles, so strict my arse he is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 He's probably not travelling to Portugal because he's fasting during Ramadan. I know it's not such a juicy story but IMO that's probably the likely reason rather than the Wonga business. @BenSmithBBC 11m Papiss Cisse has pulled out of #NUFC's pre-season tour after refusing to wear the Wonga logo. More on @BBCSport Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 He's probably not travelling to Portugal because he's fasting during Ramadan. I know it's not such a juicy story but IMO that's probably the likely reason rather than the Wonga business. I think we're past the point of trying to dress this up, like. There's no doubt at all that it's down to the Wonga issue now. Really? I haven't seen anything other than press speculation, but if it's true then it's probably a smokescreen for him to leave. I don't really swallow the moral outrage tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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