TRon Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 For me we lack a good box to box midfield man, someone who get past his forwards into the box and gets his share of goals. Until we get such a player i think the long ball is what we will stick too. That's the thing, though. The long ball crap we've been playing actually highlights, not negates, the need for a box-to-box player. exactly, how often did we have a midfielder pushing on yesterday looking to either win the second ball or get onto a knockdown that should be bread and butter if you're playing long ball? aimless, directionless floatball man We never ever have enough bodies in the box when attacking. Cabaye must get into the box at most 5 times a match these days, not good enough imo. This was the same last season as well but the results papered over a lot of cracks. The midfielders are obviously instructed to stay in their own half and protect the defence so we get the huge gap between midfield and forwards which results in long ball as an outlet, Cisse looking crap and Shola being thrown on so Pardew's rubbish tactics look better. Then Otter will pipe up here about how Shola looked better than the £10m Cisse. Defensively we look very well organised, which is fine when we don't have possession. When we do though we look utterly clueless because everyone is shit scared of making a run into the opposition half in case we lose the ball, which then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy due to the lack of options. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
colinmk Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I was always suspicious about Pardew's record as a manager because his sides have always started off well and then, as others have said, they fade away and he ends up being sacked. Obviously, I hoped that this wouldn't happen this time but it looks as if it is and although he has some mitigating circumstances after the lack of squad strengthening in the summer, there is little doubt that he is not getting the best out of the players we currently have. He persists with the 4-4-2 formation which clearly doesn't suit either Ba or Cisse, the latter being especially affected by the system...neither of these players are anywhere near being decent target men, and even if we had one, the m/f is always too far away to offer support to forwards when the ball is hoofed forwards as it usually is. The lack of ability to retain possession is bordering on criminal and other teams have now well and truly sussed how we play and are countering it easily. When we were winning games last season it was easy for fans to overlook the flaws in our general play in the hope that summer signings would address that - we now know it hasn't and the scales are starting to fall from the eyes of many fans who were prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that those who say they have lost faith with the manager is DOUBLE the figure who say its too soon to tell shows you that..... We are picking up bad suspensions after players commit silly and serious fouls - it is hard to avoid the feeling that some of this is happening due to frustration among the better players, both with the way they are being asked to perform and the lack of summer reinforcements. Pardew has obviously had them onside over the last 2 seasons but it looks as if they are either seeing through him as a tactician or that they, like many fans, see him as a Board apologist. Good managers get great performances out of ordinary players...KK did this as did SBR...poor managers make good players look ordinary or less talented than they actually are - I reckon the number of fans who are willing to put Pardew in the former category has diminished drastically this season, but there is little chance of his being replaced, Apart from the fact that Ashley would not want to pay any compensation, who else would take the job ? Would anyone on here put a brass farthing on Jol, say, leaving Fulham to work for Ashley and Llambias ? I wouldn't..... Unless we end up in a relegation spot by Christmas - not completely unlikely at this rate - Pardew is here for the foreseeable future. Percentage football will rule, at least until the season's end, but whether many fans will renew STs after a season of this stuff is another matter ; Ashley fired Allardyce because he 'wasn't being entertained'...is he now, I wonder ? Sums it up fairly. Even if Ashley isn't being entertained there is no way he's going back down that road again. I'm quite sure he views at all rather differently to how he did then too. The romantic notions he might have had for the football club were quickly gone after his numerous mistakes that cost him money and reputation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Ashley is here for the money and fame, just hopes he eventually get things to fall in place. He got the scouting network working, the wage structure, just get a good coach like Martin Jol and we would be fine. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Playing devil's advocate, maybe the apparent focus (in training) on being defensively solid rather than fluid going forward is related to the large number of forced changes to our back 5, be it through injuries or suspensions? In 11 Premiership matches we have had to make 14 changes in personnel between games: Spurs (h): Krul, Simpson, Perch, S.Taylor, Santon Chelsea (a): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 1 change Villa (h): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Everton (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => 3 changes Norwich (h): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Reading (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Man U (h): Harper, Santon, Williamson, Perch, Ferguson => 3 changes Mackems (a): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => 3 changes West Brom (h): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => no changes Liverpool (a): Krul, Anita, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 2 changes West Ham (h): Krul, Simspon, S.Taylor, Williamson, Santon => 2 changes Mind, this is excluding forced in-game changes and also ignoring the stop-start season our midfield enforcer Tiote has had so far. For the first half of last season we saw the huge benefit of having a fairly stable back 5 that saw us unbeaten in 17 (?)- this year so far seems to be the opposite. We're also heavily relying on the likes of Williamson (7 starts) , Harper (4 starts) and Perch (4 starts (in defence)) because of a lack of squad depth (of the required quality). This might go some way towards explaining our preoccupation with being solid first and foremost? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ketsbaia Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 I liked Mike's idea yesterday about the Williamson free kick routine, it needs it's own song that is sung every time it happens. I don't think Pardew can hear me standing up and screaming 's****' in Level 4 so I need some help. That s*** doesn't work That s*** doesn't worrrrrrrrk Crossing to Willo That s*** doesn't work That definitely works Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Playing devil's advocate, maybe the apparent focus (in training) on being defensively solid rather than fluid going forward is related to the large number of forced changes to our back 5, be it through injuries or suspensions? In 11 Premiership matches we have had to make 14 changes in personnel between games: Spurs (h): Krul, Simpson, Perch, S.Taylor, Santon Chelsea (a): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 1 change Villa (h): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Everton (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => 3 changes Norwich (h): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Reading (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Man U (h): Harper, Santon, Williamson, Perch, Ferguson => 3 changes Mackems (a): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => 3 changes West Brom (h): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => no changes Liverpool (a): Krul, Anita, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 2 changes West Ham (h): Krul, Simspon, S.Taylor, Williamson, Santon => 2 changes Mind, this is excluding forced in-game changes and also ignoring the stop-start season our midfield enforcer Tiote has had so far. For the first half of last season we saw the huge benefit of having a fairly stable back 5 that saw us unbeaten in 17 (?)- this year so far seems to be the opposite. We're also heavily relying on the likes of Williamson (7 starts) , Harper (4 starts) and Perch (4 starts (in defence)) because of a lack of squad depth (of the required quality). This might go some way towards explaining our preoccupation with being solid first and foremost? It was little different for most of last season though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JCONA Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Wish everyone would remember Arsenal & Wenger. How many bad spells have they had over the years.. And how many good ones.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Wish everyone would remember Arsenal & Wenger. How many bad spells have they had over the years.. And how many good ones.. Ah, forgot about that totally irrelevant fact. Feel much better now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rich Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Poor comparison. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Playing devil's advocate, maybe the apparent focus (in training) on being defensively solid rather than fluid going forward is related to the large number of forced changes to our back 5, be it through injuries or suspensions? In 11 Premiership matches we have had to make 14 changes in personnel between games: Spurs (h): Krul, Simpson, Perch, S.Taylor, Santon Chelsea (a): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 1 change Villa (h): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Everton (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => 3 changes Norwich (h): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Reading (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Man U (h): Harper, Santon, Williamson, Perch, Ferguson => 3 changes Mackems (a): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => 3 changes West Brom (h): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => no changes Liverpool (a): Krul, Anita, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 2 changes West Ham (h): Krul, Simspon, S.Taylor, Williamson, Santon => 2 changes Mind, this is excluding forced in-game changes and also ignoring the stop-start season our midfield enforcer Tiote has had so far. For the first half of last season we saw the huge benefit of having a fairly stable back 5 that saw us unbeaten in 17 (?)- this year so far seems to be the opposite. We're also heavily relying on the likes of Williamson (7 starts) , Harper (4 starts) and Perch (4 starts (in defence)) because of a lack of squad depth (of the required quality). This might go some way towards explaining our preoccupation with being solid first and foremost? It was little different for most of last season though. It was massively different. We started the first 10 matches with the same back 5 last season IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Playing devil's advocate, maybe the apparent focus (in training) on being defensively solid rather than fluid going forward is related to the large number of forced changes to our back 5, be it through injuries or suspensions? In 11 Premiership matches we have had to make 14 changes in personnel between games: Spurs (h): Krul, Simpson, Perch, S.Taylor, Santon Chelsea (a): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 1 change Villa (h): Krul, Simpson, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Everton (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => 3 changes Norwich (h): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Reading (a): Harper, Perch, Williamson, S.Taylor, Santon => no changes Man U (h): Harper, Santon, Williamson, Perch, Ferguson => 3 changes Mackems (a): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => 3 changes West Brom (h): Krul, Simpson, Williamson, Coloccini, Santon => no changes Liverpool (a): Krul, Anita, Coloccini, S.Taylor, Santon => 2 changes West Ham (h): Krul, Simspon, S.Taylor, Williamson, Santon => 2 changes Mind, this is excluding forced in-game changes and also ignoring the stop-start season our midfield enforcer Tiote has had so far. For the first half of last season we saw the huge benefit of having a fairly stable back 5 that saw us unbeaten in 17 (?)- this year so far seems to be the opposite. We're also heavily relying on the likes of Williamson (7 starts) , Harper (4 starts) and Perch (4 starts (in defence)) because of a lack of squad depth (of the required quality). This might go some way towards explaining our preoccupation with being solid first and foremost? It was little different for most of last season though. It was massively different. We started the first 10 matches with the same back 5 last season IIRC. I'm talking about the conservative approach, clinging onto 1-0 leads at home, worrying about the other team instead of preparing our own game, having to change a disastrous system after 20 minutes, total inability to retain possession, kicking it long and staying rigid with nobody moving out of position. It was early last season that Pardew told us we do defensive work four days out of five. I could find you 100 posts from last season identical to ones from yesterday with no effort whatsoever. It's got jack all to do with how many changes we make. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jayson Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Losing Tiote, Perch & now Jonas as Cabayes partners, including Cabaye himself at one point has been a big issue. Its hard to attack fluidly when your main central creative force is staying back covering his partner & thats isolating the strikers also. Defensively we've not been to bad, the goals are a bit random (Ba's own goal, Suarez long ball, mishit shot yesterday tapped in) Generally when we only conceded 1 a game last season we'd just outscore them using Ba & Krul/blocks would save the rest. Hopefully we'll see a difference with Tiote back for Swansea, if he can chill out a bit. We really need a confident win to get us going. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 That's not my point though. We've hardly had our preferred back 5 (6 if you include Tiote) out this season and have had to make a lot of changes between matches, which might explain the focus on defensive solidity before offensive fluidity. Edit: the same point could be made for the midfield in general, where we've seen more than our fair share of forced permutations, as Jayson correctly points out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 That's not my point though. We've hardly had our preferred back 5 (6 if you include Tiote) out this season and have had to make a lot of changes between matches, which might explain the focus on defensive solidity before offensive fluidity. Right. So you completely missed my point that we focused on defensive solidity first and foremost all last season too? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 We don't have to make changes for the Europa League btw. That could be used to get the first team playing good stuff and building confidence without the pressure of Premier League results and against inferior opposition. I remember Robson's team whacking Breda 5-0 on the Thursday night then on the Saturday evening came within a stupid penalty of beating an incredible Arsenal side at Highbury. You can't use changes to the side as an excuse when it's the manager's decision to chop and change the personnel and formation from game to game even when he hasn't got injuries or suspensions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 That's not my point though. We've hardly had our preferred back 5 (6 if you include Tiote) out this season and have had to make a lot of changes between matches, which might explain the focus on defensive solidity before offensive fluidity. Right. So you completely missed my point that we focused on defensive solidity first and foremost all last season too? There's no denying Pardew started to experiment with different attacking formations last seasons once we were settled though. My point is this time around maybe it is understandable we are having to work harder on the defensive side of things, as the back five hasn't settled yet. Santon has been the only ever present, and even then we've had to play him in different positions due to the inavailability of others. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 We don't have to make changes for the Europa League btw. That could be used to get the first team playing good stuff and building confidence without the pressure of Premier League results and against inferior opposition. I remember Robson's team whacking Breda 5-0 on the Thursday night then on the Saturday evening came within a stupid penalty of beating an incredible Arsenal side at Highbury. You can't use changes to the side as an excuse when it's the manager's decision to chop and change the personnel and formation from game to game even when he hasn't got injuries or suspensions. That's an entirely different discussion though. I for one am perfectly happy to use the early stages of the European campaign to give the likes of Tavernier and Ferguson some official game time and develop their game if we can afford it. If we would have played our first team all the time I'm failry certain people would be claiming it was the cause for the injuries and suspensions. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vinkent Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Does the team have enough depth? No. Are we working with very little atm ? Yes. Would getting rid of Pardew solve the problem? I think not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Does the team have enough depth? No. Are we working with very little atm ? Yes. Would getting rid of Pardew solve the problem? I think not. Do WBA/Everton/Norwich/Villa/Swansea/Fulham* have depth? No. Are they working with very little atm? Yes. Would giving them Pardew give them a problem? I think so. * - teams who are more enjoyable to watch than we are Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 We don't have to make changes for the Europa League btw. That could be used to get the first team playing good stuff and building confidence without the pressure of Premier League results and against inferior opposition. Ba in particular can barely play 65 minutes a week without looking like one of his lungs has just been removed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
henke Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Pardew's going nowhere, nor do i want him to. As dire as we are at the minute we're still within touching distance of where we want to be. In terms of the league table. If he was given the boot we'd be right back to laughing stock status and no manager worth a bean would take the job anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Wish everyone would remember Arsenal & Wenger. How many bad spells have they had over the years.. And how many good ones.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Pardew's going nowhere, nor do i want him to. As dire as we are at the minute we're still within touching distance of where we want to be. In terms of the league table. If he was given the boot we'd be right back to laughing stock status and no manager worth a bean would take the job anyway. I remember reading this line of thought after the Liverpool game - how we had a nice run of 4 easy games coming up and we would pile on the easy wins then....oops! Beating crap teams can only ever be taken for granted if we are going to use superior technique and personnel to outwit them over 90 mins. When the tactic is to battle them and defend deep against big physical sides, then the wins are going to be harder to come by. I said this last week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Vinkent Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Does the team have enough depth? No. Are we working with very little atm ? Yes. Would getting rid of Pardew solve the problem? I think not. Do WBA/Everton/Norwich/Villa/Swansea/Fulham* have depth? No. Are they working with very little atm? Yes. Would giving them Pardew give them a problem? I think so. * - teams who are more enjoyable to watch than we are Fair point made that they are more enjoyable to watch at the moment but in all honesty I believe theyre nearly at 100% and arent unreachable now in the league. Norwich, Villa, Swansea all have staying in the league on their mind and I don't honestly believe the rest could finish 5th like us last season. I agree we're not playing well at all at the moment but we're still mid-table. I agree Pardew needs to get it sorted soon but like all managers, he's not perfect. It's been a funny season for all so far and think it needs to be reviewed as such. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronaldo Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Norwich are more enjoyable to watch than us? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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