Ba and Cissé

[Dr Venkman]

Ba is the one that's scoring the goals in that position. Like I said, it's double-edged sword because it seems daft to move a player that's scoring goals from their position, but it's hurting us as a team. I don't think Pardew likes 433 at all, or he's got it into his head that 442 is defensively safer, or something. :shrug:

 

I think the truth is probably somewhere in between. He likes 4-4-2 and he's trying to keep Ba happy.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

[TRon]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

 

I think he prefers 4-4-2 and whacking long balls to the front man. If he was really a 4-3-3 man there's no way he'd have spent so long last season and tried to start this season playing that type of football. He wouldn't be much of a manager if he changed his formation and entire football philosophy to keep one player happy.

[themanupstairs]

IMO partnerships are all about the mental relationship between two players. It's not too dissimilar to marriage actually. They both have to be willing to sacrifice personal glory for the greater good of the team. If one of them isn't willing, they should be moved on. Absolutely no "physical" reason why two top class forwards like them can't play together. Their physical attributes aren't all that different, and neither is their technical ability.

 

Shearer and Ferdinand worked because both players understood what had to be done to make it work, and the manager at the time made sure they were provided with enough chances to fill their boots. At the moment there doesn't look to be enough harmony between Ba and Cisse, and they don't get anywhere near enough chances. It's a big problem and if it is solved I see no reason why we can't seriously ruffle some feathers, at least, high up in the league.

[HawK]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

 

I think he prefers 4-4-2 and whacking long balls to the front man. If he was really a 4-3-3 man there's no way he'd have spent so long last season and tried to start this season playing that type of football. He wouldn't be much of a manager if he changed his formation and entire football philosophy to keep one player happy.

 

For all his qualities, tactical nous is not one of them. Said it for a long time now. And yep, it appears that's exactly what he's been doing for the past part of 6-7 months now.

[Decky]

I think the ball needs to be kept on the ground and our attacks need to be worked more. I think Cisse is struggling with this long ball stuff tbh, 442 probably isn't helping him either, he scored all those goals last year whilst playing the middle of 433 didn't he? Ba and Cisse showed last season that they can work well together with Ben Arfa chipping in as well.

[Jagten]

You don't really get great strike partnerships any more, and there's a good reason for that.

 

Unless we aspire to play like Stoke, Pardew should stop trying.

[Guest BooBoo]

Whoop! More formation bickering.

[OzzieMandias]

There can be only one!

[Guest Howaythetoon]

They can both work well together even centrally as a pair, but our midfield and tactics do not and never will suit either together, especially in a 4-4-2. Having said that, both need to work on their own game and with it try to forge a partnership. I do wonder what we practice in training and what kind of coaching goes on in regards to that by the way. It is a lazy cliche to say they cannot play together though. For me, it is all about service and the dynamics of the team. The service we supply does not suit Ba or Cisse, long balls or floated crosses. As for the team dynamic it is set up to contain meaning our two forwards are first and foremost defensive forwards, which as a result means they tend to play deep (for strikers) or with their back to the goal. They would both score a bucket load if we were set up to attack from the start and provided a better level of service. Imagine those two up front in KK's team or Sir Bobby's with the likes of Ginola, Beardsley, Gillespie, Solano, Robert, Dyer et al providing the bullets. I dare say they would be just as lethal if not more than the Shearer and Sir Les combo or the Shearer and Beardsley combo.

[Dave]

I think too much is made of striking partnerships, as though Yorke and Cole-esque understanding is necessary or even common. It's not. We have two great goalscorers at the club and so far for whatever reason they've not been hot at the same time. When Ba was playing wider last season he was still getting plenty of chances, he just wasn't finding the net unlike Cisse whose every touch seemed to fly in. It's the opposite right now. It's nothing to do with Ba or their partnership that Cisse skied that penalty against Norwich, or got a tough call against Man Utd for example.

 

We're not playing well as a team and not creating enough chances for either striker for my liking. With the creative talents we have, both Ba and Cisse should be scoring more tap-ins. Sort the passing and movement out and I have full confidence that both of them will score goals on a regular basis. That isn't to say they shouldn't be working on things of course, but I think this 'they can't play together' thing is overstated.

[Cronky]

I think too much is made of striking partnerships, as though Yorke and Cole-esque understanding is necessary or even common. It's not.

 

Aaaaaaaagh! No, Dave. With strikers the right combination is very important.

 

Even the best strikers can be made to look ordinary if not given the right role, and they won't get the right role if in a botched combination.

[Dave]

Name some key striking partnerships then, in the Premier League right now.

 

I'm not denying that some pairings can work brilliantly, I just think the whole thing is overplayed.

[ChrisMcQuillan]

Name some key striking partnerships then, in the Premier League right now.

 

I'm not denying that some pairings can work brilliantly, I just think the whole thing is overplayed.

 

Steven Fletcher and God. 

[The College Dropout]

How many teams play with 2 out and out strikers?

 

 

Us and fucking QPR.

[Cajun]

How many teams play with 2 out and out strikers?

 

 

Us and fucking QPR.

 

Man United?

[Dave]

How many teams play with 2 out and out strikers?

 

 

Us and fucking QPR.

 

Man United?

 

Nope.

[The College Dropout]

This season they have not settled on a system. They played 2 up front on properly on the weekend granted but they deployed a 4-4-1-1 a lot last season.

[The College Dropout]

On a 4-4-2.

 

"If you do that, you only have one point of attack," he said. "Whereas if you have one guy dropping off, you have two points of attack." Old fergie.

[Pilko]

Ba was just absolutely knackered at the end of last season. The same will happen this campaign, by the way.

 

I was so annoyed that Cisse was subbed every game and Ba left on at the end of last season. "Ba needs a goal, though!" was the cry from a lot of people on here, yet none ever acknowledged that Ba looked so shot after about 55 minutes that he had very little chance of actually getting one.

[alexthegreat]

Wasn't Pardew's initial plan 4-2-3-1/4-3-3 when he joined with club and why we was linked with so many wide players and midfielders in the first summer?

 

I mean after all the players we have bought over last 2-3 years are designed for those systems so it all seems a bit strange to play a system which would be alien to them.

 

Personally believe Pardew promised Ba he would be main striker so he would stay ( some of the quotes do seem to indicate that) rather than actually using something he prefers.

 

I think he prefers 4-4-2 and whacking long balls to the front man. If he was really a 4-3-3 man there's no way he'd have spent so long last season and tried to start this season playing that type of football. He wouldn't be much of a manager if he changed his formation and entire football philosophy to keep one player happy.

 

First time I recall us going 433 was in January v QPR, midway through the 1st half, when he surprised everyone by putting Ben Arfa on for the injured Cabaye.  It had been an abysmal performance up to that point. It picked up slightly and we won the game. Don't think 433 had ever been mentioned as a possibility on here up until that game, it was entirely his own doing, and I reckon it was the best way of fitting Ben Arfa into the team at that stage of his development. Alot of posters on here at that time actually wanted him to get back to the tactics that got us unbeaten in 11 games.

 

He then tried it in a few other games that month, but it didn't look great with Best out wide and Jonas sometimes used as an attacking central midfielder.

 

So I wouldn't say hes opposed to it particularly. I just think that at the moment he wants to get 2 quality strikers near the goal as much as possible, but is finding it very difficult to make it work.

 

Personally I was very impressed with the way he evolved the team last season: Started with a 442 with a front 4 of Jonas-Ba-Best-Obertan, and Simpson and Taylor at fullback, (that went 11 unbeaten).

 

By the end of March he had successfully got Ben Arfa and Cisse into the side, both playing incredibly effectively (I thought HBA was quite poor this time last year) and he'd started to get Santon going as well. Got 7 wins in 8 with some decent football at times, sometimes in a 442 and sometimes a 433.

 

So I'd say hes been extremely impressive as far as tactics go. We are struggling a little bit at the moment, but theres more than enough evidence from last season to suggest he will take steps to sort it out.

[Dave]

Good post.

[Flip]

4-3-3 was mentioned way long before Pardew used it. Actually me and Im pretty sure others on here also suggested he shouldve played a 4-3-3.

[Guest BooBoo]

Well done.

[Cronky]

Name some key striking partnerships then, in the Premier League right now.

 

I'm not denying that some pairings can work brilliantly, I just think the whole thing is overplayed.

 

The best example I can think of is what's happened at Chelsea. Torres and Drogba - both good players but they both need to play as the more advanced striker. Now Drogba is gone, and Torres is the main striker with Hazard and Mata behind him - everything works much better for Torres and the team as a whole.

 

The problem with two out and out strikers is they can end up playing side by side and the link with the midfield becomes shaky. You can end up by-passing the midfield with long balls. Relying on one striker being able to feed off the flick-ons from the other used to work better than it does now. Defences are more sophisticated now.