England

[ohmelads]

On Maguire: different managers like different types of defenders. Bruce didn't see any place for Schar because he didn't fit how he likes to play (I'm not sure what that style was meant to be, but let's not go there). Howe came in and immediately saw Schar as a key first team player. 

 

I think Southgate believes that most teams win major international tournaments through being a strong defensive unit, even when they have had squads full of attacking talent (see how France were tactically last year, for example). When he first came in I recall comments that the FA had looked at past winners and concluded that winning with swashbuckling football and outplaying everyone is the exception rather than the rule. His philosophy very much seems to be that in order to beat the elite teams, we should be defensively tight with a dangerous counter punch. That explains him sticking with two defensive midfielders even against weaker opposition, because he wants us well drilled in that system for when the big games come. 

 

Maguire for all his flaws excels in the air and is less exposed when we sit deeper, which is how Southgate wants to line up against the best opposition. That probably explains why he's been better for England than Man U, because Man U play a higher line and expect defenders to be comfortable on the ball. 

 

I don't agree with Southgate's stance personally, but I think it's more than blind loyalty. I think he's a cynic and believes that our odds of winning are greater if we can keep it tight against the best teams. He was a penalty kick either side away from being proven right. But there is also a case to say that with the kind runs and circumstances he has had, and the quality at his disposal, he was too restrained and that a tight cagey game suited a slower but hugely experienced Italian side more than it did us at home with a team full of pace and 'fret'. 

 

The Henderson one I don't get. Maybe he can't find any other DMs and needs two in his XI. 

[Shearergol]

I'd have no issue with Maguire playing if he was in form. He's not though. I don't know how many games he has to play to prove that. He's massively lacking in confidence (understandably) but sticking him on the pitch to allow fans to jeer and boo him just isn't going to help. 

 

It's the same with any player on the pitch. It's the reason a lot of people are saying that Howe should drop Bruno.

 

It's been said plenty, but Maguire really should have got that move to West Ham.

[Paully]

 

https://x.com/rangersbear55/status/1701866672146035177?s=46&t=FsEm6VC2ijNnTjHjyXU7DA

[The College Dropout]

37 minutes ago, KaKa said:

Didier Deschamps in my opinion is a depressingly negative manager that manages to make the talent in that French team look disjointed and ugly in footballing terms. However he has a major X factor in Mbappe that produces moments of if exceptional brilliance that often bails them out. Of course when he didn't start yesterday they lost to that awful German team that have been flopping badly.

 

Southgate is a version of Deschamps but without a player the level of Mbappe that can come through for England in big moments. Maybe Bellingham can be that guy playing in more advanced areas like he did yesterday. If so, then England might win something in the near future.

 

Think both managers are very limited though and do not get anywhere near the most of the talent they have available to them.

 

Would love to have seen Wenger manage the French team at some point but not looking like that will ever happen. Zidane probably gets the gig next, which would be far more interesting.

 

For England, they have an extraordinary level of talent in the forward areas at the minute that is just not being capitalised on. At best they will likely continue to get quite close under Southgate, because currently a number of European teams are just not at their previous levels, but ultimately when the chips are down at key moments he'll play it safer and it will not go England's way.

Zidane is depressingly negative too but gets away with it because he's Zinedine Zidane (and wins).

 

Both Deschamps and Zidane played a lot of their careers under Italian managers, and it shows.

[KaKa]

2 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

Zidane is depressingly negative too but gets away with it because he's Zinedine Zidane (and wins).

 

Both Deschamps and Zidane played a lot of their careers under Italian managers, and it shows.

 

Maybe I don't remember that well then. You may well have that right. Good point you raise about playing in Italy for Italian managers.

 

Wenger was the one that I would have really liked to see in charge of the team at some point, but doesn't look like it will happen.

[RobsonsWonderland]

4 minutes ago, KaKa said:

 

Maybe I don't remember that well then. You may well have that right. Good point you raise about playing in Italy for Italian managers.

 

Wenger was the one that I would have really liked to see in charge of the team at some point, but doesn't look like it will happen.

I always wished it had worked out for Keegan and England and then I read about his last game in charge... see it was even Southgates fault back then lol

[toon25]

3 hours ago, KaKa said:

Didier Deschamps in my opinion is a depressingly negative manager that manages to make the talent in that French team look disjointed and ugly in footballing terms. However he has a major X factor in Mbappe that produces moments of if exceptional brilliance that often bails them out. Of course when he didn't start yesterday they lost to that awful German team that have been flopping badly.

 

Southgate is a version of Deschamps but without a player the level of Mbappe that can come through for England in big moments. Maybe Bellingham can be that guy playing in more advanced areas like he did yesterday. If so, then England might win something in the near future.

 

Think both managers are very limited though and do not get anywhere near the most of the talent they have available to them.

 

Would love to have seen Wenger manage the French team at some point but not looking like that will ever happen. Zidane probably gets the gig next, which would be far more interesting.

 

For England, they have an extraordinary level of talent in the forward areas at the minute that is just not being capitalised on. At best they will likely continue to get quite close under Southgate, because currently a number of European teams are just not at their previous levels, but ultimately when the chips are down at key moments he'll play it safer and it will not go England's way.

 

Great post.

 

Some of the shit Southgate is starting to come out with - Foden can't play in the middle (tell Pep that) and the bizarre Maguire defence last night - is just indicative of his limitations. 

 

 

 

 

[Tiresias]

Yeah I think Southgate has run his course, starting to make some baffling decisions more out of stubboness than anything else. He likes Maguire because none of the other defenders are a physical unit to threaten at set pieces and in defense but at a point he's not good enough so you have to adapt. Maguire deserves space to rebuild his confidence out of the limelight, he was mad not to go to west ham and if it costs him ever getting a good premier league move and ending up like phil jones then that's to be honest entirely on him now. 

 

I still think Southgate has transformed England hugely and deserves to leave on his own terms, he deserves not to be hounded out if he really wants to have one last go at the Euros, but hope he can be talked out of it. Equally if there was an option he could be kept around for the vibes, he clearly is well respected by the players. He really could do with a proper modern thinker doing the tactics though. I fucking hate his persistence with a double fucking pivot. (i hate it not cos of terminology I just think it's negative and outdated now)

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I just can’t think of anyone who would manage England that would have a better chance of winning a trophy. We’ve come very close. 
 

Potter perhaps, but he’s probably wanting another club job. 

[joeyt]

You can say that again

[Ben]

1 hour ago, Tiresias said:

Yeah I think Southgate has run his course, starting to make some baffling decisions more out of stubboness than anything else. He likes Maguire because none of the other defenders are a physical unit to threaten at set pieces and in defense but at a point he's not good enough so you have to adapt. Maguire deserves space to rebuild his confidence out of the limelight, he was mad not to go to west ham and if it costs him ever getting a good premier league move and ending up like phil jones then that's to be honest entirely on him now. 

 

I still think Southgate has transformed England hugely and deserves to leave on his own terms, he deserves not to be hounded out if he really wants to have one last go at the Euros, but hope he can be talked out of it. Equally if there was an option he could be kept around for the vibes, he clearly is well respected by the players. He really could do with a proper modern thinker doing the tactics though. I fucking hate his persistence with a double fucking pivot. (i hate it not cos of terminology I just think it's negative and outdated now)

Southgates end game is next summer, he has no desire now for the future which means we are stuck with Henderson and Maguire. I personally think Maguire is finished, hes trying to hard and he needs to get back to basics, his positioning is horrendous, i think he needs a few months playing twice a week for a championship team, obviously thats never going to happen.

[Tiresias]

Honestly think Moyes would have been good for him but yes. Potter would be rubbish imo, you dont have time as an international manager to institute how Brighton play, and you can't really afford to tinker endlessly with players which is what he got stuck doing at chelsea. 

[brummie]

Here’s a perfect example of what pisses people off about Southgate. 
 

He patronisingly points out that ‘Pep’ never plays Foden through the middle “for a reason”.

 

Without stopping to think that by that same logic Pep never plays Phillips ANYWHERE “for a reason”.

 

He just renders the whole thing so unmeritocratic and depressing whilst doing so with the best crop of players we’ve ever had. 
 

Then goes on about people getting stuck into Maguire without reflecting on him being the person exposing a player who can’t get a kick at his club to that in the first place. 
 

I don’t give too many fucks about England any more and it is in large part because of hypocrites like Southgate. 
 

 

[brummie]

What i am trying to say but failing to explain well is that I would support him in his convictions if he were at least consistent. 
 

He isn’t though. 
 

he consistently fails to match up to qualities and standards which HE HIMSELF set in the first place. 
 

He genuinely manages England like a mid table premier league club. 

[Kid Icarus]

1 hour ago, brummie said:

Here’s a perfect example of what pisses people off about Southgate. 
 

He patronisingly points out that ‘Pep’ never plays Foden through the middle “for a reason”.

 

Without stopping to think that by that same logic Pep never plays Phillips ANYWHERE “for a reason”.

 

This would only make sense if England also has Rodri and co at their disposal. 

[St. Maximin]

14 hours ago, Yorkie said:

 

The point I was (poorly) making about the 'England always lose once they meet someone good' argument wasn't so much that it's completely untrue. It's that it's disproportionate and an unfair stick to beat him with, given: the apparent rubbing-out of achievements prior to the defeat; the strength of the opposition we lost to; the ultra-fine margins in the defeats themselves; and given the context of previous England showings at tournaments.

 

Re the bit in bold, I think he's more than earned the chance for another crack at the Euros because it's still very much his team, despite what people will say about victories happening in spite of him. The argument seems to be that we have the players but we don't have the manager, as if replacing him means those ultra-fine margins suddenly swing in our favour. That's possible, but not probable imo. I'm not sure who we could recruit with an outstanding baseline and the time to implement their philosophy. 

 

The expectations should be great atm, I'll definitely admit that, because there are exceptional players everywhere in the side and we can win the next tournament. Hopefully the draw is kind and we meet the one team arguably better than us in the final and not before. 

Yeah, I agree there is definitely a lot of context needed, but I think it’s easily stated for a reason.
 

He’s received a lot of praise, in particular in 2018 and 2021, much of which I agree with and I find it frustrating when some of his biggest critics are so polarised and can’t appreciate the nuances. Saying that on the other hand I think he really benefits from situations he’s in, being compared to the poor managers before him, and I would say a tendency from some to see England as brave losers, plucky underdogs etc. There was nothing particularly heroic about 2021 but England gave us a reason to be excited and feel united after the worst part of a pandemic and playing almost entirely in front of home fans. You can and should still thank him for what he did to put that team together, but it’s not wrong to say we didn’t have the hardest run and the final showed us his limitations and naturally patience for that will wear thin. 

 

 

Edited September 13, 2023 by St. Maximin

[leffe186]

9 hours ago, brummie said:

…

I don’t give too many fucks about England any more and it is in large part because of hypocrites like Southgate. 

I guess I can sort of see this. I’ve been disillusioned with football for years and it helped considerably with stepping away when Spurs had dislikeable people like Conte and Mourinho (who I do actually kind of have a soft spot for tbf) in charge.

 

I don’t entirely get it though. It wasn’t in large part because of the manager, it was because of a million other things about modern football. The manager was the icing on the cake. I find Southgate annoying, but I’m English, I’m an England fan and I really enjoyed the game. To me, there are so many reasons to enjoy being an England fan and this team in particular. To throw that all away in large part because Southgate is a hypocrite seems peculiar.

 

Not a dig for the sake of it, I’m genuinely interested. Also wondering who the other hypocrites are.

[TheBrownBottle]

I don’t find Southgate dislikable, personally.  Seems like a canny gadgie.  I think he’s done well, but 100% could have done better given the players at his disposal - and should have went after botching the Euro 2020 final.

 

His decision-making is becoming bizarre now, though.  I think it’s a case of becoming stubborn when the meeja are calling out his decisions - something which afflicts most England managers if they stay in situ for any length of time. 

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by TheBrownBottle

[Groundhog63]

20 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I don’t find Southgate dislikable, personally.  Seems like a canny gadgie.  I think he’s done well, but 100% could have done better given the players at his disposal - and should have went after botching the Euro 2020 final.

 

His decision-making is becoming bizarre now, though.  I think it’s a case of becoming stubborn when the meeja are calling out his decisions - something which afflicts most England managers if they stay in situ for any length of time. 

 

 

 

I was going to type "he's a gutless wonder" but, in a rare moment of sensibility, I'll just say he's "reserved" "manages within himself" etc etc. 

I've a idea that this current crop of players, in a modern 433, could cause havoc under the right manager. The likes of Maguire, Henderson shouldn't be in it. For me, not even in the squad. Neither should Philips, who I like, until he gets regular games at his club. 

Then again I wouldn't start Kane so wtf so I know 

[mondonewc]

Could be wide of the mark here but I think a massive reason for Southgate's shift is he's all about building relationships with players and wanting people he trusts in the squad to not affect the harmony, and that takes time and effort to work at, time I believe he no longer has as I'm absolutely certain he will leave after the next Euro's regardless of the outcome. I'll be shocked if he's still England's manager this time next year. No idea who will be next though, and whilst they likely won't be as tactically inept as Southgate, they very well may do a poorer job overall. One thing he's done amazingly well at is creating an environment for the players to enjoy and perform. He has many shortcomings, his record against top 10 teams is awful, he's been very fortunate with the path to later stages, but he was also a penalty shootout away from glory, a penalty miss from Kane vs. France when we had all the momentum, then there's that moment versus Croatia where Kane just needs to pass to Sterling with an open goal and it's 2-0 and we very likely go to the Final. Sure it's all if's, maybe's, coulda's, but that's Sport! 

[mondonewc]

On a side note btw, everyone including myself raves about how good the current crop is, but if you built an England team and can choose any player from the past 30 years how many get in? From the back 5, only Walker would make mine, the rest don't even have a sweat, that's not a good start!

[RobsonsWonderland]

6 minutes ago, mondonewc said:

On a side note btw, everyone including myself raves about how good the current crop is, but if you built an England team and can choose any player from the past 30 years how many get in? From the back 5, only Walker would make mine, the rest don't even have a sweat, that's not a good start!

I seem to remember we were always a left midfielder away from being the best team in the world...  (If Giggs was only English)

 

Now it seems we are short on Cbs.

 

 

[Jaqen]

International football for the most part is fairly boring. The successful sides usually aren't playing great attacking football and blowing everyone away. It's kind of all about trying to create a system that gives you a solid platform that protects the weak areas of the side and hopefully allows your good attacking players to win you the game. 

 

Our central defense is obviously what we consider our weakness to be so generally setup with two holding players to try and minimise how much they get exposed. 

 

You get the squad for a week at time every few months, it's hard to implement anything too crazy with 11 players that don't play together normally. The Spain side that dominated had the advantage that most of them were all playing at Barca together in a very specific style, even then they were pretty boring and negative just hid it behind their possession. 

 

I get alot of the frustrations but I think people also have unfair expectations of what they think an international team should look like. 

[leffe186]

52 minutes ago, Groundhog63 said:

I was going to type "he's a gutless wonder" but, in a rare moment of sensibility, I'll just say he's "reserved" "manages within himself" etc etc. 

I've a idea that this current crop of players, in a modern 433, could cause havoc under the right manager. The likes of Maguire, Henderson shouldn't be in it. For me, not even in the squad. Neither should Philips, who I like, until he gets regular games at his club. 

Then again I wouldn't start Kane so wtf so I know 

 

41 minutes ago, mondonewc said:

On a side note btw, everyone including myself raves about how good the current crop is, but if you built an England team and can choose any player from the past 30 years how many get in? From the back 5, only Walker would make mine, the rest don't even have a sweat, that's not a good start!

Yeah it goes back to what Souness said - he needs to take the handbrake off. I wonder if part of the reason he hasn’t is because he’s never really had a top class back five that he had full faith in. Ahead of them he has a million options, but he might always have felt his defence needed more help from the midfield than was healthy.

 

I would like to think there are better options at the back, but Chilwell was disappointing the other night and at the top level I think Dunk gets exposed.

 

Edit: What Jaqen said, basically.

 

 

Edited September 14, 2023 by leffe186

[TheBrownBottle]

51 minutes ago, Groundhog63 said:

I was going to type "he's a gutless wonder" but, in a rare moment of sensibility, I'll just say he's "reserved" "manages within himself" etc etc. 

I've a idea that this current crop of players, in a modern 433, could cause havoc under the right manager. The likes of Maguire, Henderson shouldn't be in it. For me, not even in the squad. Neither should Philips, who I like, until he gets regular games at his club. 

Then again I wouldn't start Kane so wtf so I know 

I agree with most of that tbf.  Not the Kane bit though.