England

[TheBrownBottle]

1 hour ago, Super Duper Branko Strupar said:

It's all just empty words at this point though, no? He starts by going "Twice coming from behind and now a penalty shoot out". A bit of grit and riding good fortune doesn't make the lack of endeavour much more palatable imo. He sits and says this every time, and not to ignore his obvious achievements in building the environment he has from pretty much nothing, but for me at least its just got pretty boring. Maybe the tournament as a whole has an impact on that view with its lack of quality generally, but then it also sticks a bit more that we've been so flat when there's an opportunity to be bolder around less risk. Yes, nice, the resilience and togetherness, happy stuff. All good. How's about a bit more? No? We just doing this again. Pfft, okay.
I think a lot of people (or maybe just me) are just a bit worn out with football atm. Seems a bit football for football's sake of late, not helped with VAR and PSR and such. Maybe I'm just looking for something a bit exciting about it all again and unfairly putting it on Southgate, but isnt that exactly what the national team is meant to be? I think I'd honestly prefer if we went down in a bit of blaze of glory than get to the final like this. It's all a bit underwhelming. 
 

Agreed with all of these sentiments

 

Southgate absolutely deserves credit for creating what is clearly a united dressing room atmosphere, and has done for four successive tournaments - the previous couple of decades had seen non-stop shite between club-based factions.  More than happy to acknowledge that this is an achievement

 

He's also got an England team into three out of four semis - so even without winning a trophy, this is the most successful performance by an England manager other than Ramsay (who he will surpass with a Euros win on foreign soil for me)

 

The huge proviso against that is this has all been against one of the weakest fields in international football history (certainly post-war), with Germany, Italy and Holland all pretty much at the weakest they've been in decades, and the likes of Portugal and Spain feeling very much in transition.  The expanded Euros has given some very, very kind draws, and I don't think I was alone in having England reaching the semis in 2018 on the WC wallchart given the fixtures they received.

 

This is also reaping the rewards of vastly improved youth set-ups, which has seen England win U-19 Euros in 2017 and 2022, the U-21 Euros in 2023, the U-17 World Cup in 2017, and the U-20 World Cup in 2017.  This is not normal for England youth sides - there is a conveyor belt of excellent technical footballers coming into the first team (I'll happily credit Southgate for pushing the old guard out ASAP), which for all the shite talked about a 'golden generation' in the 2000s never felt like this.  I had zero expectation of an England side ever doing anything at a major tournament for most of my life - certainly not during that period.  But now, England has a couple of dozen - minimum - really good technical footballers, and the squad has a light dusting of genuine world class talent.  You don't need several superstars to win major international tournaments - most winners don't; usually, really good sides win them rather than exceptional ones.  And that is what England has - a really good side.  Which is why I reject the notion that Southgate has worked wonders - and at the moment, he's riding his luck (which I don't think he did in previous tournaments, where luck was really only a factor in the draw).

[Theregulars]

I think some credit is due also for doing something important in tournament football - making the team hard to beat (h/t @LFEE). England don’t look like conceding many, and have had control of most of the games without doing much useful with it. 
 

The thing that stops me going past lukewarm for him is that it has never passed the naked eye test, both in terms of football as entertainment but also in terms of just looking like an effective unit who know what they’re trying to do. 4 tournaments in, if there’s such value in his man management and shire wellbeing holiday instructor vibe (and clearly there’s some value in it), could we not have got in some offensive strategic savant as an advisor to work with him? 

[Flip]

3 hours ago, Theregulars said:

I think some credit is due also for doing something important in tournament football - making the team hard to beat (h/t @LFEE). England don’t look like conceding many, and have had control of most of the games without doing much useful with it. 

Almost got beat by Slovakia…

 

Problem is this England side has the talent to be the best in the world, and lets be honest given international football state right now, to dominate it. It’s sad watching this quality of offensive players not being given a chance to be creative. Its boring, static, and if England at the end wins it all, it was because of the talent and not the manager who is holding the team back regardless of the outcome. 

[The College Dropout]

England have drawn or been behind in the 2 KO games so far. And conceded in both games. They haven’t controlled anything. 
 

It’s what makes me think they won’t do a France and win in this way.  France at least are keeping clean sheets and having a measure of control. England are conceding first then finding a bit of magic.  

[triggs]

I'm not sure England are that solid defensively, they just haven't come up against many good attackers

[gbandit]

We’re not going to leak loads of goals because of our shape. If you play this defensively you have that at least. However, Spain or France would clean up against us, especially Spain because they move the ball so much quicker than us and have quality. France move the ball slowly as well but they have more of an attacking focus than us. Not sure what will happen against the Netherlands. They only seem a threat via Gakpo so he’ll likely score 

[Nucasol]

Similar to others I can’t get excited about this England team. The dopamine hit just isn’t there like 2018, 2021 and to a lesser extent 2022.

 

I think it’s a combination of the fact NUFC are no longer Ashley era whipping boys and the Southgate drama, plus the general national mood and weather.

[Ikon]

England might do a a “Greece”. Been very very lucky and looked awful overall in every game so far. Astonishing how “easy” the road to the final might be from this side compared to the other with Germany, Spain, France and so on  

[Yorkie]

7 hours ago, Super Duper Branko Strupar said:

I think a lot of people (or maybe just me) are just a bit worn out with football atm. Seems a bit football for football's sake of late, not helped with VAR and PSR and such. Maybe I'm just looking for something a bit exciting about it all again and unfairly putting it on Southgate, but isnt that exactly what the national team is meant to be? I think I'd honestly prefer if we went down in a bit of blaze of glory than get to the final like this. It's all a bit underwhelming. 

 

I agree with every word of that. Thanks to COVID we've also had three international tournaments in four years as opposed to two. We never, ever get to miss football these days. Newcastle will be probably be playing their first pre-season friendly barely a week after the Euros finishes and then we're into next season. 

 

7 hours ago, Nobody said:

Mate, you're too clever to fall for this fucking bullshit again. Southgate is fluking it to new levels we've never seen before. If that 1 in a million kick by Jude doesn't go in, we're all talking about embarrassing it is putting Toney on with 1 minute left.

 

I don't see what I'm being duped by in his press conference. I agree that our progress is reliant far moreso on luck than design, but I feel that he still deserves credit for sustaining the squad's refusal to be beaten. I agree we've been shit and Slovakia should've knocked us out.

 

Honestly I'm just trying to gee myself up, cos I think we're probably gonna go all the way at this point and I don't want the fomo brought upon by not feeling a thing.

[STM]

I just think we've been really, really lucky.

 

1996, 1998, 2002 England sides were all better than this and all had something to get behind regarding attacking football.

 

We might scrape past the Dutch. We will never beat Spain playing like this.

[El Prontonise]

I'm feeling ridiculously worn out about football.  Might've been a little different if this euros had been entertaining but it's a complete bore fest.

 

 

Edited July 7 by El Prontonise

[STM]

I think we all need a Newcastle signing.

[joeyt]

Genuinely think Southgate has been bailed out by two wonder goals and a lot of criticism is justified

[El Prontonise]

Even in summers where there isn't a major tournament they drag out the end of the season + nations league / friendlies and then U21 tournaments to ridiculous lengths. 

 

Like the Euros should always be a June tournament, now it's lasting to half way through July.

[The College Dropout]

2 hours ago, Ikon said:

England might do a a “Greece”. Been very very lucky and looked awful overall in every game so far. Astonishing how “easy” the road to the final might be from this side compared to the other with Germany, Spain, France and so on  

Greece weren’t lucky and they had a tough route to the final. Got through in a tough group with Spain and Portugal. They didn’t go to a single shoot out. 
 

beat Portugal twice in 90 minutes.  Beat France in 90.  And beat Czech in Extra Time. 

[Ikon]

2 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Greece weren’t lucky and they had a tough route to the final. Got through in a tough group with Spain and Portugal. They didn’t go to a single shoot out. 
 

beat Portugal twice in 90 minutes.  Beat France in 90.  And beat Czech in Extra Time. 

I know and I agree. I meant it more in the way of doing the extremely unexpected and winning the whole thing considering how bad England have been. What Greece did was impressive in their own way, especially when thinking about their resources. 

[leffe186]

2 hours ago, Ikon said:

England might do a a “Greece”. Been very very lucky and looked awful overall in every game so far. Astonishing how “easy” the road to the final might be from this side compared to the other with Germany, Spain, France and so on  

I wouldn’t say it’s doing a Greece - Greece had a hard working but very limited squad and found an organized, dour and defensive way to shut games down. It was the only way they could progress. We’re only similar in that we’re not creating a lot and we’re getting through.

[Ikon]

Just now, leffe186 said:

I wouldn’t say it’s doing a Greece - Greece had a hard working but very limited squad and found an organized, dour and defensive way to shut games down. It was the only way they could progress. We’re only similar in that we’re not creating a lot and we’re getting through.

Yes. I agree (see my reply above)

[El Prontonise]

England are more Portugal 2016, mind Portugal shouldn't even have got out the group stage.

 

 

Edited July 7 by El Prontonise

[Kimbo]

If Saka hadn’t scored a worldy the narrative would be that we went out without a fight. We were creating nothing last night and were second best.

[Displayname]

Just read that Southgate feels hurt by the personal attacks.

Baffling to me that someone would even consider taking that job if they are sensitive to comments from English football fans. After a long career in England himself you would think he would have known what he was getting into.

Good tolerance of abuse pretty much comes along with the job description. Hard to feel sorry for a person in such a privileged position in the first place.

[The College Dropout]

43 minutes ago, El Prontonise said:

England are more Portugal 2016, mind Portugal shouldn't even have got out the group stage.

 

 

 

Aye. I remember Portugal tightening up in the KOs. Only conceded 1 goal in the KOs. England have looked vulnerable whenever opposition attacks. 

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, Displayname said:

Just read that Southgate feels hurt by the personal attacks.

Baffling to me that someone would even consider taking that job if they are sensitive to comments from English football fans. After a long career in England himself you would think he would have known what he was getting into.

Good tolerance of abuse pretty much comes along with the job description. Hard to feel sorry for a person in such a privileged position in the first place.

I guess that depends upon what he means by personal attacks. Which ones is he saying he’s hurt by? Genuine question. 

 

I wish he was more hurt by the attacks on his ability as a coach and actually responded to them by looking inwards and making changes. He did to an extent, although he’s never going to be a good tactician and least of all on the fly - and that’s not going to change. The frustration is that we can/could all see things weren’t working and can/could see one very simple way to improve that.

 

The double-edged sword is that one way of coping with criticism is to build that togetherness and siege mentality. The other edge being that it confers stubbornness and a closed mind. That seems to be the issue. We’d all love Foden and Bellingham and Kane to work, but it’s repeatedly been shown not to. Is he persisting out of bloody-mindedness, or stupidity, or fear? I kinda don’t care unless one of those is more likely to go away.

 

 

Edited July 7 by leffe186

[TenkoDaLuz]

1 hour ago, Displayname said:

Just read that Southgate feels hurt by the personal attacks.

Baffling to me that someone would even consider taking that job if they are sensitive to comments from English football fans. After a long career in England himself you would think he would have known what he was getting into.

Good tolerance of abuse pretty much comes along with the job description. Hard to feel sorry for a person in such a privileged position in the first place.

 

Presidents and managers being hurt by mean fans saying mean things is another new aspect of modern football and not exclusive to England at all.

 

Everything that resembles a slight manifestation of insatisfaction or demand for results is seen as rude and violent.

 

This year I heard Benfica's manager saying that rude fans that boo the team at the end of the game should stay home. Years ago if a manager had the audacity to address the fans like this he would not enter the training facilities the next day.

[Theregulars]

6 hours ago, Flip said:

Almost got beat by Slovakia…

 

Problem is this England side has the talent to be the best in the world, and lets be honest given international football state right now, to dominate it. It’s sad watching this quality of offensive players not being given a chance to be creative. Its boring, static, and if England at the end wins it all, it was because of the talent and not the manager who is holding the team back regardless of the outcome. 

But, crucially, they didn't get beat. Whether we want better or not, it can't be denied that the team is difficult to score against and beat. Huge difference between almost beaten and not beaten in tournament football. 

 

To be clear, I think he's inept in too many ways to justify his continued employment as England manager.