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TheBrownBottle

TheBrownBottle

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, The College Dropout said:

It's England, Portugal & France talent-wise.

 

Germany (historically), Italy and, to a lesser extent, Croatia are big-game nations.

Croatia aren’t a big game nation akin to a Holland or Spain - they aren’t a traditional European heavyweight.  I do wonder if a unified Yugoslavia would have won a WC in the last 30 years, mind (there’s a good chance they would have).
 

Either way, no England manager has ever encountered a European football scene as bereft as the current one.  

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TheBrownBottle

TheBrownBottle

Posted
Posted
5 hours ago, The Prophet said:

 

Ah yes, that brilliant England team that was fielding *checks notes* Ashley Young, Jesse Lingard, Delle Alli and Jordan Henderson in a world cup semi-final.

 

I appreciate the amount of talent at his disposal has increased significantly in recent years and it forms part of the discussion about who should be taking us forward, but I'm just talking about his record to date.

 

Better tacticians with better squad have achieved less, no matter how many goalposts are moved. 

An England team which had to get past the collective might of *checks notes* Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden to get there (they lost to Belgium in the group stage).  Every single previous England manager could’ve managed to do that - a more favourable run to a SF is unimaginable.  

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The Prophet

The Prophet

Posted
Posted
3 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

An England team which had to get past the collective might of *checks notes* Tunisia, Panama, Colombia and Sweden to get there (they lost to Belgium in the group stage).  Every single previous England manager could’ve managed to do that - a more favourable run to a SF is unimaginable.  

 

This is the general route this debate goes down. The talent of the squad Southgate has had available during his time is exaggerated. Then the quality of the opposition is diminished. When it's pointed out we have beaten some quality opponents and we've previously had talented squads who've been knocked out by the likes of Iceland and Romania, another reason is put forward as to why he hasn't done a decent job. We'll agree to disagree on that.

 

I think we both agree Southgate is s tactically limited coach and beyond the short-term his time with England is coming to an end, but I think he's built a solid platform for whoever comes next. Unfortunately, I don't think the FA have the ambition to build on that.

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The College Dropout

The College Dropout

Posted
Posted
4 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Croatia aren’t a big game nation akin to a Holland or Spain - they aren’t a traditional European heavyweight.  I do wonder if a unified Yugoslavia would have won a WC in the last 30 years, mind (there’s a good chance they would have).
 

Either way, no England manager has ever encountered a European football scene as bereft as the current one.  

Croatia have beaten England, Argentina (group stage) and Brazil at major tournaments in the last five years. Have Holland or Spain beaten such opponents at a recent tournament? Have England?

 

I never said Croatia were traditional European heavyweights. But they've shown they can go deep in tournaments and beat heavyweight opposition.

 

 

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TheBrownBottle

TheBrownBottle

Posted
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17 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Croatia have beaten England, Argentina (group stage) and Brazil at major tournaments in the last five years. Have Holland or Spain beaten such opponents at a recent tournament? Have England?

 

I never said Croatia were traditional European heavyweights. But they've shown they can go deep in tournaments and beat heavyweight opposition.

 

 

Tbf I was just referring to the European field being the weakest it’s been in any of our lifetimes.  I know who Croatia has beaten, but the point is more that Italy, Germany etc have never been as poor as they are at present.  This is a massive opportunity to actually win something. 

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Shearergol

Shearergol

Posted
Posted
10 hours ago, The Prophet said:

 

Ah yes, that brilliant England team that was fielding *checks notes* Ashley Young, Jesse Lingard, Delle Alli and Jordan Henderson in a world cup semi-final.

 

I appreciate the amount of talent at his disposal has increased significantly in recent years and it forms part of the discussion about who should be taking us forward, but I'm just talking about his record to date.

 

Better tacticians with better squad have achieved less, no matter how many goalposts are moved. 

 

Ashley Young (PL and Serie A winner, Man United captain)

Jesse Lingard (FA Cup and Europa league winner)

Delle Alli (once a generational talent, we all know the story here)

Jordan Henderson (multiple trophy winner, Liverpool captain)

 

Let's not rewrite history. None of these were bad players, and all of them performed for England.

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WideopenMag

WideopenMag

Posted
Posted (edited)
11 hours ago, The Prophet said:

 

Yet he's our second most successful manager of all time?

 

I completely agree he's tactically limited and the conversation of whether he's the man to take us forward is a valid one, but the desperation to get stuck into what he's achieved is really strange.

 

He might not be the best tactician, but overall he's done a decent job for England.

Successful? He hasn't won anything, says it all about our attitude that people class Southgate as a success and is why we never win anything. Germany, Brazil etc he'd be out the door. The style of football and performances and results against top teams shows he's out of his depth for me, we got a good run of beatable teams in the world Cup and he cost us the euros final with his  negativity and incompetence.

 

 

Edited by WideopenMag

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The Prophet

The Prophet

Posted
Posted
21 minutes ago, WideopenMag said:

Successful? He hasn't won anything, says it all about our attitude that people class Southgate as a success and is why we never win anything. Germany, Brazil etc he'd be out the door. The style of football and performances and results against top teams shows he's out of his depth for me, we got a good run of beatable teams in the world Cup and he cost us the euros final with his  negativity and incompetence.

 

 

 

 

It's all relative though isn't it? In 2018 given the quality of our team and the expectations (or lack of), reaching the semi-final of the world cup was a success no? Similarly we were a penalty shootout away from winning Euro 2020.

 

It's all well and good saying "we should expect more", but at the time we didn't have the abundance of quality we have now. It's as though people can't separate Southgate's tournament record from his managerial ability when they're not mutually exclusive.

 

Now the team has more talent  particularly in attack, it's probably time to evolve beyond Southgate. But he's still built a great culture and has instilled solid tournament experience into the camp for the next man to build on. It's not about low expectations, he's taken a team who were knocked out of Euro 2016 by Iceland, with an apathetic fanbase and media and turned us into a side who go deep in tournaments and are united on all fronts. Now it's time to take the next step.

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  • 2 weeks later...
iklgizmo

iklgizmo

Posted
Posted
5 minutes ago, gbandit said:

This women’s game is shite. Scotland are so awful at the back. I really don’t know what the answer is but the biggest difference between the men’s and women’s game is in the goalkeepers

This goalkeeper is one of the worst I've seen in a while!

Don't judge them all by her standards!!!

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  • 3 weeks later...
Orphanage

Orphanage

Posted
Posted
On 21/11/2023 at 11:23, WideopenMag said:

Successful? He hasn't won anything, says it all about our attitude that people class Southgate as a success and is why we never win anything. Germany, Brazil etc he'd be out the door. The style of football and performances and results against top teams shows he's out of his depth for me, we got a good run of beatable teams in the world Cup and he cost us the euros final with his  negativity and incompetence.

 

 

 

Spent Xmas eve watching the decline of the England football team . It starts way back in the 1970s when i was a lad ...

Think yourselves lucky you never lived through this 

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