Jonjo Shelvey (now playing for Çaykur Rizespor, on loan from Nottingham Forest)

[steve_69]

Btw, 3 witnesses all saying around about the same thing is generally classed as evidence, even if they are reported as being slightly different statements. Someone's lying and whether it's Shelvey or the Wolves players, it's s***.

 

To be fair, if the Moroccan lad was lying i'm sure he'd accuse Shelvey of saying something less niche than 'couscous nonce'

[Tubestationatmidnight]

If it is smelly Arab that he said then just admit to it. Hardly makes him the next Hitler. His flat out refusal to admit it makes me believe he is "innocent". Our large amount of black and mixed race players don't seem to think he is some sort of neo nazi type

[Tubestationatmidnight]

Btw, 3 witnesses all saying around about the same thing is generally classed as evidence, even if they are reported as being slightly different statements. Someone's lying and whether it's Shelvey or the Wolves players, it's s***.

 

To be fair, if the Moroccan lad was lying i'm sure he'd accuse Shelvey of saying something less niche than 'couscous nonce'

 

He had no idea what was said. It was other wolves players

[Hanshithispantz]

facebook-online.org

[Nobody]

'... the three Wolves players called as witnesses gave slightly varying accounts of the alleged insult, with one claiming Shelvey had called Saïss “a smelly Arab”. Another ... claimed he heard the word Arab attached to a different insult while the third [said] he used the word “Moroccan” in a derogatory context...

 

[shelvey] continues to maintain his innocence and is adamant he did not use the words in question. It also appears the midfielder was taunted about his baldness before the incident but claims he did not rise to the bait.'

 

Regardless of burden of proof, no wonder the lawyers want to contest the decision.

 

So if he did actually say something along these lines he just used the country he is from as an insult. Is that any different to " smelly jock" " fat Kraut" etc, would them terms have someone up for racial abuse. If someone called me a smelly English whatever I wouldn't take offence because I don't see being English as a negative thing.

 

It could well be the case that saiss was griefing Shelvey and one little comment back about his nationality and the wolves players have gone complaining about it sensing an opportunity to get him banned, that's how it looks, Saiss apparently  didn't even know what was said or was offended by it. Nor should he be unless he sees his heritage as a negative thing. All just seems a load of PC gone mad and a small time club like wolves after getting Shelvey banned. Hope we appeal. My last word on the matter

That is going well

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I don't get this debate lads. Nobody can say whether or not Shelvey is 'a racist', I don't see anyone on here accusing him of that. And the political correctness thing is also strange to me, it's hardly PC to convict someone without evidence.

 

All the FA decide is whether it's more likely than not that he said these particular words, isn't it? Whether he's a racist or not is beyond the scope of anything like this. Because he plays with people of other races means nothing either way, I'm hoping people know that.

 

Not sure what my point is except that it's pretty difficult to debate this because nobody knows what he said. Seems pointless to use it as a proxy debate for criticising people who are sensitive to racism, or on the other hand to accuse Shelvey of being a racist himself.

 

On the FA conclusion itself, it does seem a bit flimsy. However, if they couldn't convict without complete proof then it would basically be impossible to enforce these rules at all.

[Hanshithispantz]

I don't get this debate lads. Nobody can say whether or not Shelvey is 'a racist', I don't see anyone on here accusing him of that. And the political correctness thing is also strange to me, it's hardly PC to convict someone without evidence.

 

All the FA decide is whether it's more likely than not that he said these particular words, isn't it? Whether he's a racist or not is beyond the scope of anything like this. Because he plays with people of other races means nothing either way, I'm hoping people know that.

 

Not sure what my point is except that it's pretty difficult to debate this because nobody knows what he said. Seems pointless to use it as a proxy debate for criticising people who are sensitive to racism, or on the other hand to accuse Shelvey of being a racist himself.

 

On the FA conclusion itself, it does seem a bit flimsy. However, if they couldn't convict without complete proof then it would basically be impossible to enforce these rules at all.

Bang on. These things always get turned into it being 'an attack on our freedoms' though which just makes it nauseating.

 

It's fair enough to suggest that the FA are being too heavy handed, just utterly ridiculous when it's accompanied by conspiracy theories such as the FA trying to make the league interesting, the Wolves players working together to get a rival banned (and not having a conversation about what they're going to say), and questioning whether being called an English cunt is as bad as 'smelly Arab' (pretty sure you'd rightfully be banned for both).

 

I hope Shelvey gets off with it, and it seems like there's a chance if the evidence is as light as the Guardian have made out.

[TRon]

I don't get this debate lads. Nobody can say whether or not Shelvey is 'a racist', I don't see anyone on here accusing him of that. And the political correctness thing is also strange to me, it's hardly PC to convict someone without evidence.

 

All the FA decide is whether it's more likely than not that he said these particular words, isn't it? Whether he's a racist or not is beyond the scope of anything like this. Because he plays with people of other races means nothing either way, I'm hoping people know that.

 

Not sure what my point is except that it's pretty difficult to debate this because nobody knows what he said. Seems pointless to use it as a proxy debate for criticising people who are sensitive to racism, or on the other hand to accuse Shelvey of being a racist himself.

 

On the FA conclusion itself, it does seem a bit flimsy. However, if they couldn't convict without complete proof then it would basically be impossible to enforce these rules at all.

 

 

It's quite possible Shelvey said something in the heat of the moment and regrets it profoundly. You would imagine the FA would have some sort of evidence that they felt they needed to enforce a ban and a pretty hefty fine. If he's been stitched up then he should appeal it and hopefully it will be overturned.

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

Be interested to see if Shelvey accepts saying words to the player but not the words attributed or if he is just flat out denying saying anything.

 

In terms of three different accounts, it's very rare for identical accounts to be given by witnesses so its not surprising to see slightly different descriptions. That said they all corroborate each other in so far as they consist of pejorative references to ethnicity. So whilst you couldn't say what words were more likely than not to have been said it's not a massive leap of faith to say it's more likely than not that he made a pejorative reference to Saiss' ethnicity.

 

 

[Guest dabe]

Maybe he was trying to broker the awkward smell of Saiss, you know, he could be that one bloke who stinks at work and it would be beneficial in the end to call it out and tell him. Jonjo is clearly a conscientious and respectful English gent to point out the hum on the pitch. FA must reek to give him a ban for being such a well mannered PC male.

 

Probably could do without calling him a cous cous looking Arab nonce as well though.

[Disco]

Just bought a job lot of non-EU approved extra flammable Morocco flags; will be selling them outside for SJP for £8.88 each on Boxing Day with a free lighter. Giz a shout if you want one.

[TRon]

Shelvey could appeal yet and maybe even play in the next two games.

 

http://c.newsnow.co.uk/A/864080578?-11058:809:0

 

If we drag it out, is there any chance his ban could clash with the ANC? I'm assuming that Diame would be considered a replacement so might not work out in our favour if we lose the appeal.

[Guest TheBallWinner]

Would prefer the appeal. I'm going to the Blackburn game on the 2nd and after watching them against Reading, it could be a case of needing to score more than them.

[Guest chopey]

I don't get this debate lads. Nobody can say whether or not Shelvey is 'a racist', I don't see anyone on here accusing him of that. And the political correctness thing is also strange to me, it's hardly PC to convict someone without evidence.

 

All the FA decide is whether it's more likely than not that he said these particular words, isn't it? Whether he's a racist or not is beyond the scope of anything like this. Because he plays with people of other races means nothing either way, I'm hoping people know that.

 

Not sure what my point is except that it's pretty difficult to debate this because nobody knows what he said. Seems pointless to use it as a proxy debate for criticising people who are sensitive to racism, or on the other hand to accuse Shelvey of being a racist himself.

 

On the FA conclusion itself, it does seem a bit flimsy. However, if they couldn't convict without complete proof then it would basically be impossible to enforce these rules at all.

 

Thats the point tho, if they havent got complete proof then there should be no conviction.

[sbnufc]

I don't get this debate lads. Nobody can say whether or not Shelvey is 'a racist', I don't see anyone on here accusing him of that. And the political correctness thing is also strange to me, it's hardly PC to convict someone without evidence.

 

All the FA decide is whether it's more likely than not that he said these particular words, isn't it? Whether he's a racist or not is beyond the scope of anything like this. Because he plays with people of other races means nothing either way, I'm hoping people know that.

 

Not sure what my point is except that it's pretty difficult to debate this because nobody knows what he said. Seems pointless to use it as a proxy debate for criticising people who are sensitive to racism, or on the other hand to accuse Shelvey of being a racist himself.

 

On the FA conclusion itself, it does seem a bit flimsy. However, if they couldn't convict without complete proof then it would basically be impossible to enforce these rules at all.

 

Thats the point tho, if they havent got complete proof then there should be no conviction.

There isnt 'complete proof' in many criminal cases either though. Wasnt Adam Johnson was sent to prison because of his word vs hers? (for what happened in the car)

 

Ched Evans was one word vs another? It's not as simple as "no complete proof = nothing wrong"

[JP]

Would prefer the appeal. I'm going to the Blackburn game on the 2nd and after watching them against Reading, it could be a case of needing to score more than them.

 

It's funny, isn't this the aim every week? 

[Seymour]

Would prefer the appeal. I'm going to the Blackburn game on the 2nd and after watching them against Reading, it could be a case of needing to score more than them.

 

It's funny, isn't this the aim every week? 

Certainly didn't feel that way under Carver like

[Incognito]

You just can't say racist things these days without being accused of being some kind of racist.

[Guest TheBallWinner]

Would prefer the appeal. I'm going to the Blackburn game on the 2nd and after watching them against Reading, it could be a case of needing to score more than them.

 

It's funny, isn't this the aim every week? 

 

Of course  I can see it being a bit of a ding dong match that's all. They look impressive up top, but poor the middle and at the back.

[Varadi]

If the appeal means he can play in the Sheff Wed and Forest games the transfer window is then open before we play again - wonder if we have cover lined up, it is the one position we look especially light in.

[Dan Gleebals]

If the appeal means he can play in the Sheff Wed and Forest games the transfer window is then open before we play again - wonder if we have cover lined up, it is the one position we look especially light in.

 

Pretty sure some competition for him was on the cards anyway although I think that might have been a better player in the summer assuming we go up. Interesting to see what we do on this.

[Tsunami]

So Shelvey was getting some grief for his baldness and 3 opposition players think he's said something racist but they can't agree what it was? He couldn't have been getting stick from the player allegedly abused unless he was gesturing towards Shelvey so I can't see how that could be related to incident he's accused of.

 

It seems that Shelvey is probably the only person who knows what was said. If he hasn't said anything wrong he has every right to fight this all the way. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Shelvey said something in the spur of the moment and can't actually remember what he said and nor can the other players around. It's a complete shambles.

[Tiresias]

Has anyone actually seen the evidence the FA are using, because as far as I'm concerned I've not seen it directly quoted anywhere in it's full extent, yes from what is reported it sounds shaky but tbh it is pure speculation unless the actual evidence is reprinted in full. (and as I've mentioned again and again, unlike criminal cases the FA does not require 'complete' proof, the burden of evidence is on the balance of probabilities (iirc) which trades off against potential punishments being much less severe than in criminal cases).

 

It does all sound a bit tenuous I agree but give Shelvey the benefit of any doubt since he is denying it strenuously and there have been no smoking gun evidence that we've seen (and if there were probably would be picked up by match cams I guess and we'd know). We don't know if there is anything else that has caused the FA to press on though.

 

I agree it's tough to take that we're losing an important player for 5 matchs on what seems dubious. However if the FA is serious about kicking racism out of the game, this doesn't mean just investigating the easy cases. If it is just Shelvey's word against theirs however not sure how this can be justified, but as said, that is pure speculation.

[Happinesstan]

Just seen it, Siss asked Shelvey if he wanted to come to dinner, apparently his lass, Ali Peshar does a mean cous cous. Shelvey replied "cous Cous?  No 'anks."

[Mattoon]

Has anyone actually seen the evidence the FA are using, because as far as I'm concerned I've not seen it directly quoted anywhere in it's full extent, yes from what is reported it sounds shaky but tbh it is pure speculation unless the actual evidence is reprinted in full.

 

According to the Chronic the findings will be viewable after Christmas, at which time they'll print what they can I'd assume and the club will decide if they want to appeal.