triggs Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 McClaren's piss poor spine was his own fault though. His fault for deciding to get Coloccini to sign a new deal, and not put any faith in Lascelles. Even to the point Williamson was going to start the season ahead of him. Also his own fault he couldn't see Abeid was a better player than Anita and Colback by miles and binned him off. Tbf Lascelles had been awful in pre season and was barely able to move at the time he was so big in the upper body Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve_69 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Other than general lack of ability in the first team, the thing that cost us the most points this season is individual errors not Rafa's tactics. We must've surrendered 10-12 points in very winnable games from doing stupid s***. The blame for those incidents does not lie at Rafa's door. Once the players take to the field it's down to them to keep their composure and concentration, and carry out the manager's tactics. If they'd done that minus the stupid errors we'd be near enough safe by now. The individual errors are quite often because they just aren't good enough. Clark couldn't handle Benteke in the air on Sunday for example so ended up tugging his shirt out of sheer desperation. Yedlin isn't naturally a good defender so he was always going to hold back from closing Zaha down properly. It's what you get when you buy players for £3-5m. I haven't even mentioned the strikers or midfielders, but it's the same story. 100%. Joselu single-handedly cost us 2 points against Burnley, Lejeune's penalty concession against Southampton cost us 2 points, Darlow's howler against Everton cost us a point. They're just the ones i can remember off the top of my head. I guess if Clark hadn't given away the penalty against Palace we might've got the 3 points. That's 7 points gone in 4 calamitous incidents. I'm sure there are others as well. I expect someone will point out that Joselu, Lejeune and Clark are Rafa signings (because it fits their agenda) but if Rafa had been given the resources he should've been, none of those players would be anywhere near the NUFC first team. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conjo Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 No context is acceptable We could swap squads with Gateshead and it'd still be SMH Rafa onlee 6 wins same as Steve. The whole conversation is about context. Though perhaps the world beaters below (chosen purely on appearances) are really ‘much better’ than what we have. Don’t see it, myself. 2015-16 (most appearances) Elliot 22 Janmaat 35 Mbemba 35 Coloccini 27 Dummett 24 Sissoko 37 Anita 29 Colback 29 Wijnaldum 40 Perez 37 Mitrovic 36 Subs: Darlow 10 Lascelles 21 Taylor 10 Tiote 22 Shelvey 13 Thauvin 16 De Jong 22 Cisse 21 To be fair, besides Janmaat, Sissoko and Wijnaldum, that starting 11 is so shite in hindsight it is no surprise we got relegated regardless of who the manager was. Mbemba - Was new to the league, is currently our 4th choice CB Coloccini - Was past it, no desire and wanted to be somewhere else Dummett - Still stinks the place up, treating the ball as burning lava Anita - Dwarf who currently struggles to get a game at Leeds Cack Jogback - Perez - Still bumbles around the pitch for us with the odd show of skill Mitrovic - Was new to the league, shows no sign of wanting to improve and has been shipped out on loan to a championship club I'd argue that our starting 11 now is stronger than it was purely because it is more balanced even though we had better individual quality in the one that got relegated. Edit: I still think its bs to suggest Rafa is doing poorly with the means he has to operate within as there are many other factors to consider in this shit discussion. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xLiaaamx Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 14/15's was worse than the one that actually went down anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Other than general lack of ability in the first team, the thing that cost us the most points this season is individual errors not Rafa's tactics. We must've surrendered 10-12 points in very winnable games from doing stupid s***. The blame for those incidents does not lie at Rafa's door. Once the players take to the field it's down to them to keep their composure and concentration, and carry out the manager's tactics. If they'd done that minus the stupid errors we'd be near enough safe by now. The individual errors are quite often because they just aren't good enough. Clark couldn't handle Benteke in the air on Sunday for example so ended up tugging his shirt out of sheer desperation. Yedlin isn't naturally a good defender so he was always going to hold back from closing Zaha down properly. It's what you get when you buy players for £3-5m. I haven't even mentioned the strikers or midfielders, but it's the same story. 100%. Joselu single-handedly cost us 2 points against Burnley, Lejeune's penalty concession against Southampton cost us 2 points, Darlow's howler against Everton cost us a point. They're just the ones i can remember off the top of my head. I guess if Clark hadn't given away the penalty against Palace we might've got the 3 points. That's 7 points gone in 4 calamitous incidents. I'm sure there are others as well. I expect someone will point out that Joselu, Lejeune and Clark are Rafa signings (because it fits their agenda) but if Rafa had been given the resources he should've been, none of those players would be anywhere near the NUFC first team. People talk about how we've got no proper strikers, but tbh, the defence is very poor as well. We need to score at least two goals to stand a chance of winning because you can guarantee we will concede at least one daft goal a game. Just look at the calibre of the back five. Most of them are in the £3-5m range I mentioned with the exception of Lejeune, and he's clearly still settling in a foreign league. You would back a lot of other struggling teams to hold out on Sunday against Man U to give themselves a chance of winning, but you know fine well we are going to concede at least two goals over the 90 mins. The only games we can win are against those who have as shite an attack as us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
timeEd32 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 This is one of the worst debates in the history of this forum. The whole premise is flawed as it's predicated on comparing players Rafa has had time to manage vs. ones he didn't. You can't actually compare anything fairly. People arguing about whether Sissoko and Wijnaldum would actually improve our current team? If your argument is they weren't motivated, whose fucking fault is that? And if you genuinely believe our current squad is better then surely you can see that Rafa deserves credit for making that happen with both hands tied behind his back? Can someone wake me up when we play again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Yep, better. SMc had 24 points by 7th Feb 2016, from 25 games. The same ‘not good enough’ 6 wins we’ve currently got today, from 26 games. He had 24 points and remained on 24 points until his sacking on March 11th. With a much better squad. Well that’s why he was sacked, obviously. Not before time, the writing was on the wall relegation wise. I’m interested in this much better squad. I’d only slot two if the pre January window squad into our current starting 11. How many would you play? You can't compare like for like though because every team in the PL has strengthened since McLaren left, every team except us. McLaren got us to the same points total in the same number of games with a stronger team than we have now but in a weaker PL. Rafa has achieved it in a much stronger PL but with a weaker squad/team. Steve 69 should have just ended the debate here like. Not only has everyone else strengthened, 17 other teams kept strengthening while we are pissing about in the champo. We've come up and strengthened less than anyone else yet we're still in with a shout of staying up. That is only down to Rafa being brilliant. That he makes mistakes amidst the brilliance is neither here nor there, the fact he's got us where we are is incredible in itself imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattoon Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I was going to add a big, long reply on how Rafa isn't to blame for this but I can't be arsed, if you're buying Ashley's media buddies bullshit agenda then you're thicker than I give you credit for. Rafa is like Usain Bolt trying to win a race whilst giving Ashley a piggy back at the Olympics, the fact he's not dead last is a miracle ffs. Wake up! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 I was going to add a big, long reply on how Rafa isn't to blame for this but I can't be arsed, if you're buying Ashley's media buddies bullshit agenda then you're thicker than I give you credit for. Rafa is like Usain Bolt trying to win a race whilst giving Ashley a piggy back at the Olympics, the fact he's not dead last is a miracle ffs. Wake up! That post should end the argument then. Done and done. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SEMTEX Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 we should probably just lock the thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 we should probably just lock the thread Why don't we lock the thread yeah. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
xLiaaamx Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Or we could just keep having these casual but meaningless discussions because thats the whole point of a football forum. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Or we could just keep having these casual but meaningless discussions because thats the whole point of a football forum. I guess what was the subtext to Tex's post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dinho lad Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Someone mentioning Abeid again.....ffs.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
themanupstairs Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 His results are poor = fact? I'm not convinced you can present this as fact. I mean you can look at points on the board and our results across a season and say that is poor. But is it not more complicated than that? The ability of our playing squad makes what at face value can be argued 'poor' results become considerably more reasonable. Similarly, the argument about our playing squad being a lot better last time is not just as simple as saying well I don't agree. I mean if you were to look at the transfer value of that squad compared to this squad the difference in quality would be pronounced. Would any one of our players if sold (at a time of greatly increased fees) merit a transfer fee of £23 million? Exactly. It's like saying Pardew was the reason we finished 5th that season and ignoring any other circumstances involved. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Infinitely Content Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Someone mentioning Abeid again.....ffs.... Great player. Hope he starts v Man U. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 Rafas not perfect...but he's the most perfect thing about our godforsaken club at the minute and on top of that he's the only man I want to represent this club. He's a fan in the managers seat, and that doesn't happen too often.Honestly I couldnt give a fuck if someone else could have us an extra point or 2 (I don't think anyone would but some obviously do). He's given us something to be proud of, and some hope. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
YNGLEGIONNAIRE Posted February 7, 2018 Share Posted February 7, 2018 We still debate about the torturous years and having managers who had no strategies or structure for developing the club and the team on the pitch . Send them out and hope for the best is basically what we've had for years , it had gotten to the point where a hell of a lot of us didn't even want the team to win , because the charlatans at the helm were credited with any crumbs of success . Here we have a genuine , astute and hugely respected figurehead as our manager and we are doubting his methods ? I know things can be frustrating at times , but this guy knows exactly what he wants from every player in every position on that pitch , and he wants every player on the books at all times to know what's expected of them . The fact that a great number of our playing staff are not up to the job is a major issue.Rafa will stick to his guns... We need to stick with Rafa. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 If we get relegated, will Rafa be the first manager to get us relegated twice? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 If we get relegated, will Rafa be the first manager to get us relegated twice? No because he hasn't got us relegated before. That's on Mike Ashley and Steve McClaren. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 If we get relegated, will Rafa be the first manager to get us relegated twice? No because he hasn't got us relegated before. That's on Mike Ashley and Steve McClaren. If he had gotten us the points we needed, he would have saved us. He didnt so we got relegated... Tomato-Tomato Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattoon Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 If we get relegated, will Rafa be the first manager to get us relegated twice? No because he hasn't got us relegated before. That's on Mike Ashley and Steve McClaren. If he had gotten us the points we needed, he would have saved us. He didnt so we got relegated... Tomato-Tomato There's a distinct difference between being unable to save something that was already damaged and being responsible for said damage as well you know. Rafa was not responsible for the last relegation potato-potato. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 If we get relegated, will Rafa be the first manager to get us relegated twice? No because he hasn't got us relegated before. That's on Mike Ashley and Steve McClaren. If he had gotten us the points we needed, he would have saved us. He didnt so we got relegated... Tomato-Tomato What a load of shite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Begbie Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 If we get relegated, will Rafa be the first manager to get us relegated twice? No because he hasn't got us relegated before. That's on Mike Ashley and Steve McClaren. If he had gotten us the points we needed, he would have saved us. He didnt so we got relegated... Tomato-Tomato There's a distinct difference between being unable to save something that was already damaged and being responsible for said damage as well you know. Rafa was not responsible for the last relegation potato-potato. He was the manager, he had a hopless job to save us but he was our manager and was here when we got relegated. Dont care about the responsibility, and im not having a dig at Rafa, im curious if he will be the first to have been our manager in to relegations. Tought we all ready new that Ashley is responsible for the relegation.. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robster Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 What the hell has gone on on here recently. So many WUM's craving attention. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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