Martin Dúbravka

[Lush Vlad]

35 minutes ago, Pilko said:

People have short memories. Remember when a returning Pope sat on the bench late last season for several games despite Dubravka looking shit, then away at Man U Dubravka was at fault for two goals that arguably cost us a European place? Then Pope plays at Burnley three days later.

 

I'm glad Dubs has been steady and not made any errors but Pope is the superior keeper by a mile and should come back in soon as he's fit.

 

They really do.  

 

Admittedly I don't think Pope has hit the heights of his first season for a few reasons.  But I remember when he came in some were a bit skeptical.  Then it didn't take long for so many to realise what a big upgrade he was on Dubravka.  

 

Now we have had 7 games where the team as a whole have played better, we've stumbled on a formula (Dubs has been a part of that TBF) that works and made some slight tweaks here and there.  We're conceding fuck all chances and suddenly Dubravka is great and Pope shouldn't even come back in ?  

 

Based on the last 2.5 games.  I'm not convinced this upturn in form has been as much to do with Dubravka's kicking/passing as people have been making out, either.  We've hardly tried to play like that and have more control from basically the second half of the Man U game onwards.  We have just sat in and defended a lead for the most part.  Not like he's been spraying it about and constantly playing round a press. 

 

I'm also surprised more hasn't been made of the Havertz and Timber sitters that were missed.  That's criminally bad goalkeeping (along with the defending for the Havertz one) and luckily, we weren't punished.  The offside one where he was scambling about trying to kick it.  WTF was that all about?  He was back to being rooted to his line or stuck under the ball all the while.  Albeit against a team that love set pieces and crosses.  

 

It's all hard to quantify, as others have said.  But I do think this place and fans in general have fairly short memories when it comes to their opinions on players.  It also goes to show the fine margins in football, as I think if some of the errors from the Arsenal game resulted in goals.  Would fans be so positive about how great he has been and so mad keen on him keeping his place? 

 

 

Edited 7 hours ago by Lush Vlad

[HawK]

1 minute ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

They really do.  

 

Admittedly I don't think Pope has hit the heights of his first season for a few reasons.  But I remember when he came in some were a bit skeptical.  Then it didn't take long for so many to realise what a big upgrade he was on Dubravka.  

 

Now we have had 7 games where the team as a whole have played better, we've stumbled on a formula (Dubs has been a part of that TBF) that works and made some slight tweaks here and there.  We're conceding fuck all chances and suddenly Dubravka is great and Pope shouldn't even come back in ?  

 

Based on the last 2.5 games.  I'm not convinced this upturn in form has been as much to do with Dubravka's kicking/passing as people have been making out, either.  We've hardly tried to play like that and have more control from basically the second half of the Man U game onwards.  We have just sat in and defended a lead for the most part.  Not like he's been spraying it about and constantly playing round a press. 

 

I'm also surprised more hasn't been made of the Havertz and Timber sitters that were missed.  That's criminally bad goalkeeping and luckily, we weren't punished.  The offside one where he was scambling about trying to kick it.  WTF was that all about?  He was back to being rooted to his line or stuck under the ball all the while.  Albeit against a team that love set pieces and crosses.  

 

It's all hard to quantify, as others have said.  But I do think this place and fans in general have fairly short memories when it comes to their opinions on players.  It also goes to show the fine margins in football, as I think if some of the errors from the Arsenal game resulted in goals.  Would fans be so positive about how great he has been and so mad keen on him keeping his place? 

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Pope was better in a team with a high line that needed a sweeper keeper. Dubs with a high line just doesn't work because he doesn't really leave the box.

 

With a low defensive line, and re-starting play, Dubs is the better option. He'd got good control and good long-passing as well so he can initiate either way, he's a good 2-way keeper in that regard.

 

For how we play now, for me Dubs is the better option.

 

As for the errors, he only had one save to make vs Arsenal and he made it. We've conceded 2 in 7 including games away at Man Utd, Spurs, Arsenal since he's come in. Correlation is not causation, but for me it's not a case that used to be when Longstaff played we won, but none of us could quanity why. We can clearly see what Dubs is contributing in this run.

[Menace]

15 minutes ago, Shearergol said:

So we gave Longstaff an extra year so we could get a fee for him, but if we give Dubs a contract it's a bad thing?

 

The Saudi team wants him on a free - who is realistically paying money to us for Martin Dubravka.

[Hanshithispantz]

I don't get the issue with renewing his contract like, he's not a bad number 2 and would be an excellent 3rd choice.

[Lush Vlad]

4 minutes ago, HawK said:

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Pope was better in a team with a high line that needed a sweeper keeper. Dubs with a high line just doesn't work because he doesn't really leave the box.

 

With a low defensive line, and re-starting play, Dubs is the better option. He'd got good control and good long-passing as well so he can initiate either way, he's a good 2-way keeper in that regard.

 

For how we play now, for me Dubs is the better option.

 

As for the errors, he only had one save to make vs Arsenal and he made it. We've conceded 2 in 7 including games away at Man Utd, Spurs, Arsenal since he's come in. Correlation is not causation, but for me it's not a case that used to be when Longstaff played we won, but none of us could quanity why. We can clearly see what Dubs is contributing in this run.

 

That's fine and I agree with some of this FWIW. 

 

But if we are going to surrender possession like we have in the last 2.5 games, which I'm sure isn't all by design.  I would not be comfortable with Dubravka playing in nets at all.  He gets lost under high balls far more than Pope and still shows his reluctance to come off his line.  

 

It's all a bit of a moot point.  As I think this only applies to the remainder of this season.  I do think they will try and find a middle ground and go for a keeper in the summer that is somewhere between the two and more of an all rounder.  Won't be cheap, of course.  But I do think this stint of Dubs playing in goal has highlighted that we need a keeper who can pass the ball a lot better than Pope can.  

[Hanshithispantz]

3 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

They really do.  

 

Admittedly I don't think Pope has hit the heights of his first season for a few reasons.  But I remember when he came in some were a bit skeptical.  Then it didn't take long for so many to realise what a big upgrade he was on Dubravka.  

 

Now we have had 7 games where the team as a whole have played better, we've stumbled on a formula (Dubs has been a part of that TBF) that works and made some slight tweaks here and there.  We're conceding fuck all chances and suddenly Dubravka is great and Pope shouldn't even come back in ?  

 

Based on the last 2.5 games.  I'm not convinced this upturn in form has been as much to do with Dubravka's kicking/passing as people have been making out, either.  We've hardly tried to play like that and have more control from basically the second half of the Man U game onwards.  We have just sat in and defended a lead for the most part.  Not like he's been spraying it about and constantly playing round a press. 

 

I'm also surprised more hasn't been made of the Havertz and Timber sitters that were missed.  That's criminally bad goalkeeping (along with the defending for the Havertz one) and luckily, we weren't punished.  The offside one where he was scambling about trying to kick it.  WTF was that all about?  He was back to being rooted to his line or stuck under the ball all the while.  Albeit against a team that love set pieces and crosses.  

 

It's all hard to quantify, as others have said.  But I do think this place and fans in general have fairly short memories when it comes to their opinions on players.  It also goes to show the fine margins in football, as I think if some of the errors from the Arsenal game resulted in goals.  Would fans be so positive about how great he has been and so mad keen on him keeping his place? 

 

 

 

I don't think it's short memories with Pope like, we're becoming a better side in possession and I think his kicking is becoming more noticeable. Teams know that if they can get a forward within a few yards of him he's going to kick it into touch.

 

He's a much better keeper than Dubs, and much better off his line, he'll no doubt reclaim his place.

 

 

Edited 3 hours ago by Hanshithispantz

[HawK]

6 minutes ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

That's fine and I agree with some of this FWIW. 

 

But if we are going to surrender possession like we have in the last 2.5 games, which I'm sure isn't all by design.  I would not be comfortable with Dubravka playing in nets at all.  He gets lost under high balls far more than Pope and still shows his reluctance to come off his line.  

 

It's all a bit of a moot point.  As I think this only applies to the remainder of this season.  I do think they will try and find a middle ground and go for a keeper in the summer that is somewhere between the two and more of an all rounder.  Won't be cheap, of course.  But I do think this stint of Dubs playing in goal has highlighted that we need a keeper who can pass the ball a lot better than Pope can.  

 

Yep - I think we're pretty much saying the same thing. As a pure 'keeper' in the traditional sense, I agree Dubs isn't very good.

 

For the moment, if we can restrict the amount of keeping he has to do (with the defence in front of him that we have now I think that's something we can certainly do quite well), with our current shape and style, he's ahead of Pope purely from an in-possession perspective. If the opponents have the ball, then I want Pope in the nets. 

 

In the summer I want a new no.1 too - I just really hope that Howe's seeing the value in a ball-playing keeper and not just getting another shot stopper. If Dubs' legacy is we end up with a ball-playing keeper, I'll be a happy man.

[TheBrownBottle]

If we reached the LC Final and Dubravka was selected ahead of Pope I’d be far more nervous

[madras]

I'd want to see how we play with Pope in goal and Tonali in his new position before any definitive decision.

[simonsays]

I think we just need a new keeper who can both....

 

1. Make saves

2. Pass the ball competently

 

Both Dubravka and Pope are lacking in one of these.

[Ginola14]

didn't sit well with me that he might be leaving in the middle of this great run of which he has played a very important part 

 

he seems to be very good at finding Hall which is a really effective outball for us 

 

still not as commanding as Pope but I think his passing makes us more comfortable in possession which takes a lot of pressure of the team 

 

please stay 

[PauloGeordio]

 

[wormy]

Just jumped on his Wiki to remind myself exactly how many years he's been with us. Completely useless information but it'd completely passed me by that we only took him on loan for that half a season in 17/18 with an option to buy in the summer.

[Earp]

Not sure if anyone has posted on the subject and I can't be arsed to look, but wasn't his debut against Man U and he had a blinder?

[mattypnufc]

Just now, Earp said:

Not sure if anyone has posted on the subject and I can't be arsed to look, but wasn't his debut against Man U and he had a blinder?

Yup

[GeordieDazzler]

29 minutes ago, Earp said:

Not sure if anyone has posted on the subject and I can't be arsed to look, but wasn't his debut against Man U and he had a blinder?

Ritchie 1-0, great day that 

[alexf]

Was it Darlow he replaced? Remember that game and it being night and day in terms of quality. He caught everything and communicated with the back 4 etc. was a great signing at the time. 

[LFEE]

2 hours ago, HawK said:

 

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

Pope was better in a team with a high line that needed a sweeper keeper. Dubs with a high line just doesn't work because he doesn't really leave the box.

 

With a low defensive line, and re-starting play, Dubs is the better option. He'd got good control and good long-passing as well so he can initiate either way, he's a good 2-way keeper in that regard.

 

For how we play now, for me Dubs is the better option.

 

 

This is where I’m at TBH.

 

If Burn is going to remain in the defence Dubs helps massively with having the extra man in the team to create the angles whilst Burn helps out aerially. 

 

If EH reverts back to Botman and Schar then there could be an argument it swings back to picking Pope. As you improve with Schar’s feet what you might lose a little aerially. 
 

Next season you want a defender with both AND pace. Which of course EH knows though I’d argue Guehi wasn’t the right fit aerially.

[Earp]

25 minutes ago, GeordieDazzler said:

Ritchie 1-0, great day that 

That's the one. He was superb

[Big River]

not sure anybody thinks Dubravka is the answer, but him playing and playing well, has definitely highlighted how as a team we've outgrown Pope. being an unbelievable shot stopper isn't enough these days.

 

as much as I like him and appreciate what he's done, I really don't want to see Nick Pope back in net for us.

[TheBrownBottle]

2 minutes ago, Big River said:

not sure anybody thinks Dubravka is the answer, but him playing and playing well, has definitely highlighted how as a team we've outgrown Pope. being an unbelievable shot stopper isn't enough these days.

 

as much as I like him and appreciate what he's done, I really don't want to see Nick Pope back in net for us.

Until we’ve got someone better, Pope should be back in nets as soon as he’s fit.  We should be looking to upgrade at the earliest possible opportunity 

[TRon]

3 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

Howe’s one real weakness as a manager is clinging onto players well past the point of sanity.  GK is a position which should be strengthened ASAP - which means shifting deadwood.  Dubravka has been ok recently, but again vs Arsenal they had three shots on target and Christ he made me nervous on crosses.  Totally understandable if Howe doesn’t want to lose him this window - but June should be the end of his time here if he doesn’t go. 

 

 

Tbh with you, it's perfectly understandable Howe wants to keep as many players as he can, he's got to look at short term results as his job depends on them.

 

It's Mitchell who should be making the hard nosed business decisions, and I don't see how it makes sense to give a contract extension to a 35 year old keeper if we want to free up money to buy a younger better version.

[TheBrownBottle]

Just now, TRon said:

 

 

Tbh with you, it's perfectly understandable Howe wants to keep as many players as he can, he's got to look at short term results as his job depends on them.

 

It's Mitchell who should be making the hard nosed business decisions, and I don't see how it makes sense to give a contract extension to a 35 year old keeper if we want to free up money to buy a younger better version.

Yeah, I think you’re right there tbf

[Tsunami]

If we’re not getting a fee then surely only Dubs can be pushing this? Moving in this window could be a part of the contract he’s being offered in Saudi. He’s no spring chicken.

 

We can’t be looking at extending his contract for more than a year (hopefully we just release and replace in the summer). There’s absolutely no incentive for us to let go?

[Rod]

3 hours ago, Lush Vlad said:

 

They really do.  

 

Admittedly I don't think Pope has hit the heights of his first season for a few reasons.  But I remember when he came in some were a bit skeptical.  Then it didn't take long for so many to realise what a big upgrade he was on Dubravka.  

 

Now we have had 7 games where the team as a whole have played better, we've stumbled on a formula (Dubs has been a part of that TBF) that works and made some slight tweaks here and there.  We're conceding fuck all chances and suddenly Dubravka is great and Pope shouldn't even come back in ?  

 

Based on the last 2.5 games.  I'm not convinced this upturn in form has been as much to do with Dubravka's kicking/passing as people have been making out, either.  We've hardly tried to play like that and have more control from basically the second half of the Man U game onwards.  We have just sat in and defended a lead for the most part.  Not like he's been spraying it about and constantly playing round a press. 

 

I'm also surprised more hasn't been made of the Havertz and Timber sitters that were missed.  That's criminally bad goalkeeping (along with the defending for the Havertz one) and luckily, we weren't punished.  The offside one where he was scambling about trying to kick it.  WTF was that all about?  He was back to being rooted to his line or stuck under the ball all the while.  Albeit against a team that love set pieces and crosses.  

 

It's all hard to quantify, as others have said.  But I do think this place and fans in general have fairly short memories when it comes to their opinions on players.  It also goes to show the fine margins in football, as I think if some of the errors from the Arsenal game resulted in goals.  Would fans be so positive about how great he has been and so mad keen on him keeping his place? 

 

 

 

Spot on!