Video Assistant Referees (VAR)

[Fantail Breeze]

Yeah it was awful, that. It wasn't even a pass to him.

 

I don't really have a problem with that. It happens the other way, where a player is offside when the pass is played but onside after it takes a deflection from the defender. It's just bad luck. Or good if you're spurs.

 

Yeah, I dunno, there's just something about it which feels harsher, in that it wasn't an ill-timed pass or run; just effective pressing forcing an error and then capitalising on it.

 

I mean, regardless of any of that, the bottom line is that there's f*** all in it and Aguero hasn't unfairly gained an advantage by being in that position.

 

One of the major inconsistencies of VAR is that the 'clear and obvious error' thing seems to be applied just about everywhere except offside, where incidents are so seldom clear and obvious. They might review a clumsy tackle in the box and, despite there being evidence that a foul was committed, a penalty remains ungiven on the basis of some woolly and subjective metric around the ref's ability to make the call in the first instance. Yet offside calls, based on meaningless inches in either direction, are being scrutinised and enforced with the fullest extent of their s**** tech. If the lino misses a stray kneecap it's a clear and obvious error is it? Total bollocks.

 

I agree with most of that, but I don't think that incident can be blamed on VAR. He was in an offside position when his teammate touched the ball, so he's offside, thems the rules. The lino should have given it as offside.

 

Just had a closer look and it's a lot tighter than I first thought but I still think it's offside. Without VAR we'd be discussing how Spurs were robbed.

 

Yeah but I'd far prefer that to the soul being sucked out of every goal celebration.

 

I'd prefer a fair result. I feel people complain about VAR sucking the emotion out of celebrating goals like realizing the linesman raised his flag after celebrating your ass off wasn't something that used to happen before VAR.

 

Barely ever, I'd always look at the linesman as soon as the ball crossed the line -  aye you'd get some oblivious people who took maybe ten seconds. Having a 'fair result' is just not worth it for me for removing the best thing about football. I realize it's subjective and a tired debate so I'll refrain.

 

In my own view, I'd personally rather not NUFC won a cup final (as if we'd ever get to one ) if that win would forever be marred by a s*** decision, I'd want us to win it fair and square. But yeah, people in different corners won't convince the other at this point so it's as you say a bit tired at this stage.

 

Your argument is slightly flawed because VAR doesn’t guarantee a ‘fair result’. The offside calls cannot be accurately measured as accurately as they’re trying and football decisions are subjective in the main, there isn’t always a ‘right’ decision that everyone is in unanimous agreement about.

 

Does VAR overturn enough wrong decisions to make it worthwhile with all of the disruption? Absolutely not, imo. We’re having as many conversations about decisions as we always have, but now we’re having decisions about what is/what isn’t a ‘clear and obvious error’. So in actual fact, there is more controversy and more contentious decisions with the added bonus of large disruptions to the flow of the game and sucking the passion out of it.

 

Plus I disagree with your whole point about not feeling satisfied if we won a trophy through a bad decision. We’ve had our fair share of s*** decisions, I couldn’t care less if we won the FA Cup 1-0 through Wilson throwing the ball in the net from a throw-in. It’d mean just as much as a 10-0 win. We’ve won f*** all, how can we be so fussy about where the win comes from?

[Happinesstan]

Remember the national shame that haunted France for decades after the 2010 world cup?

[Paully]

I hardly celebrated Matty Longstaff's winner at home to Man Utd as I was convinced that Jetro was offside down the left from my view just behind the goal!

 

VAR is wank especially if you're actually at the match!

 

 

 

Refuse to believe that any football fan who has been in an away end and celebrated a last minute winner would be in favour of VAR.

 

 

Ha ha 1000000000%!

[Kaizero]

Yeah it was awful, that. It wasn't even a pass to him.

 

I don't really have a problem with that. It happens the other way, where a player is offside when the pass is played but onside after it takes a deflection from the defender. It's just bad luck. Or good if you're spurs.

 

Yeah, I dunno, there's just something about it which feels harsher, in that it wasn't an ill-timed pass or run; just effective pressing forcing an error and then capitalising on it.

 

I mean, regardless of any of that, the bottom line is that there's f*** all in it and Aguero hasn't unfairly gained an advantage by being in that position.

 

One of the major inconsistencies of VAR is that the 'clear and obvious error' thing seems to be applied just about everywhere except offside, where incidents are so seldom clear and obvious. They might review a clumsy tackle in the box and, despite there being evidence that a foul was committed, a penalty remains ungiven on the basis of some woolly and subjective metric around the ref's ability to make the call in the first instance. Yet offside calls, based on meaningless inches in either direction, are being scrutinised and enforced with the fullest extent of their s**** tech. If the lino misses a stray kneecap it's a clear and obvious error is it? Total bollocks.

 

I agree with most of that, but I don't think that incident can be blamed on VAR. He was in an offside position when his teammate touched the ball, so he's offside, thems the rules. The lino should have given it as offside.

 

Just had a closer look and it's a lot tighter than I first thought but I still think it's offside. Without VAR we'd be discussing how Spurs were robbed.

 

Yeah but I'd far prefer that to the soul being sucked out of every goal celebration.

 

I'd prefer a fair result. I feel people complain about VAR sucking the emotion out of celebrating goals like realizing the linesman raised his flag after celebrating your ass off wasn't something that used to happen before VAR.

 

Barely ever, I'd always look at the linesman as soon as the ball crossed the line -  aye you'd get some oblivious people who took maybe ten seconds. Having a 'fair result' is just not worth it for me for removing the best thing about football. I realize it's subjective and a tired debate so I'll refrain.

 

In my own view, I'd personally rather not NUFC won a cup final (as if we'd ever get to one ) if that win would forever be marred by a s*** decision, I'd want us to win it fair and square. But yeah, people in different corners won't convince the other at this point so it's as you say a bit tired at this stage.

 

Your argument is slightly flawed because VAR doesn’t guarantee a ‘fair result’. The offside calls cannot be accurately measured as accurately as they’re trying and football decisions are subjective in the main, there isn’t always a ‘right’ decision that everyone is in unanimous agreement about.

 

Does VAR overturn enough wrong decisions to make it worthwhile with all of the disruption? Absolutely not, imo. We’re having as many conversations about decisions as we always have, but now we’re having decisions about what is/what isn’t a ‘clear and obvious error’. So in actual fact, there is more controversy and more contentious decisions with the added bonus of large disruptions to the flow of the game and sucking the passion out of it.

 

Plus I disagree with your whole point about not feeling satisfied if we won a trophy through a bad decision. We’ve had our fair share of s*** decisions, I couldn’t care less if we won the FA Cup 1-0 through Wilson throwing the ball in the net from a throw-in. It’d mean just as much as a 10-0 win. We’ve won f*** all, how can we be so fussy about where the win comes from?

 

Because it'd be tantamount to cheating and I, personally, would not enjoy it as much as if it wasn't won that way. I'm not saying others wouldn't enjoy it, just that I wouldn't, and that I am massively in favor of VAR and thinks it improves the enjoyment of the game a thousandfold for me. That said, it has a lot of wrinkles to iron out before it's perfect still, but I want it to get there and so it needs to steadily evolve and be used to iron out said wrinkles.

[Guest]

The way it’s used and speed the reach decisions needs to improve massively like and I think they’ll get there.

[Happinesstan]

I disagree that it needs to steadily evolve. Somebody needs to lay out what it is intended to do, based on wat it actually can do, and fucking stick to it. Little tweaks, going forward, sure, but right now it's just a bunch of retards getting excited because technology.

[BlueStar]

 

 

Introducing thick lines, no word on if they're rescinding the use of thick refs. 

[Yorkie]

Not read any of the articles yet but it sounds like a rare sensible decision. Something had to change with offsides, it was an absolute farce. 

[Newcastle Fan]

Looking at how Var and the general standard of officiating  has been in the Euros it really tells you where the problem is, it's nothing with the rules or VAR as much as its how incompetent the people in charge of applying them are in the EPL

[Fantail Breeze]

1 hour ago, Newcastle Fan said:

Looking at how Var and the general standard of officiating  has been in the Euros it really tells you where the problem is, it's nothing with the rules or VAR as much as its how incompetent the people in charge of applying them are in the EPL

 

VAR is still shite though. Can’t enjoy a goal properly until the game has kicked off again.

 

Edit - point proven in the Italy match.

 

 

Edited June 16, 2021 by Fantail Breeze

[Dancing Brave]

2 hours ago, Fantail Breeze said:

 

VAR is still shite though. Can’t enjoy a goal properly until the game has kicked off again.

 

Edit - point proven in the Italy match.

 

 

 

This is the reason I hate VAR so much. Even if the decision was correct. 

 Goal line technology is all the game needed, let the ref sort the rest.

[huss9]

VAR being used much better in the Euros. Seem a lot less pedantic than the English.

[Kaizero]

On 16/06/2021 at 22:36, Dancing Brave said:

This is the reason I hate VAR so much. Even if the decision was correct. 

 Goal line technology is all the game needed, let the ref sort the rest.

 

Yeah, let's go back to when goals weren't disallowed before VAR. Oh, wait, they were.

[Superior Acuña]

35 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Yeah, let's go back to when goals weren't disallowed before VAR. Oh, wait, they were.

 

Yeah but instantly - it's a totally different dynamic.  There were very rare cases that needed prolonged discussion between linesman and ref. If no flag was up you could celebrate with confidence. Now any goal that involves a potential offside pass somewhere in run up or may have grazed an arm you can't go mad til you've had confirmation from VAR HQ, possibly when players are all lined up about to kick off again. If you think what it does to the game is worth it to get the correct decisions, I totally disagree but fair enough, but you can't suggest a linesman's flag or whatever disallowing a goal is similar to what happens now.

[Kaizero]

2 minutes ago, Inferior Acuña said:

 

Yeah but instantly - it's a totally different dynamic.  There were very rare cases that needed prolonged discussion between linesman and ref. If no flag was up you could celebrate with confidence. Now any goal that involves a potential offside pass somewhere in run up or may have grazed an arm you can't go mad til you've had confirmation from VAR HQ, possibly when players are all lined up about to kick off again. If you think what it does to the game is worth it to get the correct decisions, I totally disagree but fair enough, but you can't suggest a linesman's flag or whatever disallowing a goal is similar to what happens now.

 

Just, you know, go mad. There's more goals allowed than disallowed. It's a conscious choice to allow VAR to ruin your experience. I've not had a diminished experience whatsoever, if there's a goal I celebrate - I don't think "better wait to see if there's a VAR check!"

[1964]

There's no fucking about in the euros,  does it look onside, yes give it, no dont.

 

No endless forensic study of armpit hair, other than 2 shit penalties not overturned its been good

[Superior Acuña]

29 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Just, you know, go mad. There's more goals allowed than disallowed. It's a conscious choice to allow VAR to ruin your experience. I've not had a diminished experience whatsoever, if there's a goal I celebrate - I don't think "better wait to see if there's a VAR check!"

 

I wish I could, but I'd be faking it. The joy of a goal is totally different for me when I have substantial doubt of whether it actually was a goal - doesn't feel like you're celebrating a goal, but a possible goal. Depends on the kind of goal to some extent - Scotland's against Croatia I did because it didn't seem the type there could be anything pulled back for. But anything that involves anyone getting passed the defence (potential offisde) or ball up in box (potential handball) - a lot of goals - has been massively dampened.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Inferior Acuña

[Kaizero]

19 minutes ago, Inferior Acuña said:

 

I wish I could, but I'd be faking it. The joy of a goal is totally different for me when I have substantial doubt of whether it actually was a goal - doesn't feel like you're celebrating a goal, but a possible goal. Depends on the kind of goal to some extent - Scotland's against Croatia I did because it didn't seem the type there could be anything pulled back for. But anything that involves anyone getting passed the defence (potential offisde) or ball up in box (potential handball) - a lot of goals - has been massively dampened.

 

 

 

 

Last PL season there were 128 major VAR incidents, meaning around 1 in every 6 games. I'd say there's no reason to not celebrate goals.

 

32 goals in the PL were ruled out for offside by VAR. So 1 per 23-ish matches.

 

Last season we had no goals ruled out by VAR for offside. We benefited more by VAR decisions such as giving us a penalty that originally wasn't given due to a wrong offside decision by the linesman. We had no goals ruled out for handball either, but got two penalties given by VAR for it.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kaizero

[Fantail Breeze]

48 minutes ago, Inferior Acuña said:

 

I wish I could, but I'd be faking it. The joy of a goal is totally different for me when I have substantial doubt of whether it actually was a goal - doesn't feel like you're celebrating a goal, but a possible goal. Depends on the kind of goal to some extent - Scotland's against Croatia I did because it didn't seem the type there could be anything pulled back for. But anything that involves anyone getting passed the defence (potential offisde) or ball up in box (potential handball) - a lot of goals - has been massively dampened.

 

 

 

 

Completely agree. 

 

VAR has also caused more issued than it prevents imo, as most predicted:

 

- Contact = foul now, no matter how slight or ridiculous.

- Handball rule being completely fucked about with to the extent it’s a load of bollocks and ruining the game.

- Offside; see point two above.

 

Football decisions are subjective and are very rarely definitive one way or another. That’s why VAR is pointless. Goal line technology does work however, because it is definitive. 

 

Any number of people can watch the same tackle and all have a different interpretation. 

 

There is no place for VAR. Use the money to train referees and you’ll get a similar output with less interruptions and bullshit confusion.

[Kaizero]

Average time for a VAR check in the PL is 22 seconds.

[Superior Acuña]

57 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Last PL season there were 128 major VAR incidents, meaning around 1 in every 6 games. I'd say there's no reason to not celebrate goals.

 

32 goals in the PL were ruled out for offside by VAR. So 1 per 23-ish matches.

 

Last season we had no goals ruled out by VAR for offside. We benefited more by VAR decisions such as giving us a penalty that originally wasn't given due to a wrong offside decision by the linesman. We had no goals ruled out for handball either, but got two penalties given by VAR for it.

 

 

 

 

We had though what was probably our biggest goal of the season and what would've been one of the best moments of the season ruled out by VAR at Anfield (thank god for the follow up) (wasn't that one for handball?). We had others checked which in of itself delays it really being a goal to celebrate. What was probably our best moment under Rafa in the PL would have been rule out by VAR - Perez v Everton. We've seen countless other moments wiped off by VAR for other teams.

 

I don't really think those numbers show it's that rare - '128 major incidents' (we've also benefited by being a relatively low scoring side);. It's much more likely a goal will stand, but it's also entirely realistic that a goal will be wiped off. Especially when it's key that you narrow it down by types of goal that you know are more at risk. As I say, I'll probably celebrate a screamer from nowhere the same. As soon as you've been burned by one, I don't think any goals are the same. Fans of countless clubs know what it's like to think they've scored an important goal, but actually haven't - that fundamentally changes things from before. 

 

What it comes down to me for me:

You're really telling me if someone looks tight onside/offside, you can't tell, you know it's going to get VAR checked, puts the ball in the net you're going to celebrate the same as if you knew for a fact it's a goal? Honestly good for you if you can, I can't imagine how I could. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Inferior Acuña

[Kaizero]

5 minutes ago, Inferior Acuña said:

 

We had though what was probably our biggest goal of the season and what would've been one of the best moments of the season ruled out by VAR at Anfield (thank god for the follow up) (wasn't that one for handball?). We had others checked which in of itself delays it really being a goal to celebrate. What was probably our best moment under Rafa in the PL would have been rule out by VAR - Perez v Everton. We've seen countless other moments wiped off by VAR for other teams.

 

I don't really think those numbers show it's that rare - '128 major incidents' (we've also benefited by being a relatively low scoring side);. It's much more likely a goal will stand, but it's also entirely realistic that a goal will be wiped off. Especially when it's key that you narrow it down by types of goal that you know are more at risk. As I say, I'll probably celebrate a screamer from nowhere the same. As soon as you've been burned by one, I don't think any goals are the same.

 

What it comes down to me for me:

You're really telling me if someone looks tight onside/offside, you can't tell, you know it's going to get VAR checked, puts the ball in the net you're going to celebrate the same as if you knew for a fact it's a goal? Honestly good for you if you can, I can't imagine how I could. 

 

Because statistically the goal will stand. If it's an obvious offside I'll not celebrate, just as I wouldn't before VAR. If I can't be sure it wasn't onside, I will await the on-field decision (or VAR decision). I feel people are being annoyed by VAR just to be annoyed by something. It has increased the number of correct referee decisions and that is what matters to me. If we win a game I'd be happy, but I'd be happier if the opponent couldn't point to the goal we won with being bullshit, it cheapens the victory for me.

 

My only issue with VAR is that the PL has incredibly shitty refs. There's no doubt issues now and then in other leagues as well, but there's controversy in the PL all the time whilst it works great in other leagues. When I watch the Spanish, German or Italian top divisions it tends to run flawlessly. It's only in the PL matches I even notice VAR existing most of the time.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kaizero

[Nobody]

I for one always think about stats when watching a football game. 

[Kaizero]

4 minutes ago, Nobody said:

I for one always think about stats when watching a football game. 

 

But you think about VAR. Just don't. Enjoy the match. You'd be consciously choosing to not enjoy the match for a reason that makes no sense and is no more likely to interfere (in a wrong way) with the match than before it was added.

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Kaizero

[Superior Acuña]

12 minutes ago, Kaizero said:

 

Because statistically the goal will stand. If it's an obvious offside I'll not celebrate, just as I wouldn't before VAR. If I can't be sure it wasn't onside, I will await the on-field decision (or VAR decision). I feel people are being annoyed by VAR just to be annoyed by something. It has increased the number of correct referee decisions and that is what matters to me. If we win a game I'd be happy, but I'd be happier if the opponent couldn't point to the goal we won with being bullshit, it cheapens the victory for me.

 

My only issue with VAR is that the PL has incredibly shitty refs. There's no doubt issues now and then in other leagues as well, but there's controversy in the PL all the time whilst it works great in other leagues. When I watch the Spanish, German or Italian top divisions it tends to run flawlessly. It's only in the PL matches I even notice VAR existing most of the time.

 

 

 

 

I can promise you I'd love to not give a shit and enjoy a goal the same, it makes me sad that the something I absolutely loved has been diminished. I don't at all buy it's the same as before VAR. If I thought someone might be offside pre-VAR I glanced at the linesman in less than second. Statistically most goals will stand. But you can tell when a goal has to be checked, and you know then that is a significant chance, even if it's more likely to stand than not, that the thing you''d be jumping around ecstatic about doesn't exist. A goal celebration isn't a conscious choice, it's an emotional reaction so I can't make myself put the fact it might get disallowed out of my head, and think it's quite unlikely. It's likely that it will happen to some of our goals every season, and that's enough. I

 

The stuff about the importance of getting decisions right, cool, fair enough, I disagree. And I'm glad for you VAR hasn't diminished your enjoyment of goals. I really jumped into dispute the suggestion that a goal being disallowed by VAR is similar to pre-VAR - there's no point arguing about the decisions thing as it's totally subjective. 

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Inferior Acuña