Takeover Thread - July 1st statement, Staveley letter to Tracey Crouch (and response) in OP

[gdm]

A wee thread

 

[Shearergol]

All down to:

 

a) Bruce saving us from relegation

b) Piracy issue being resolved

c) EPL changing their stance

 

Easy enough.

[Dokko]

All down to:

 

a) Bruce saving us from relegation

b) Piracy issue being resolved

c) EPL changing their stance

 

Easy enough.

 

Can’t wait for the meatloaf pics from nick when one goes sideways.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

A wee thread

 

 

I think, finally, indisputable evidence that this is not "close". Be it a few weeks or a couple of months. Which should save us all reading endless back and forths discussing the subject on here from people that dont have a clue.

 

Please!

[Hhtoon]

A wee thread

 

 

I think, finally, indisputable evidence that this is not "close". Be it a few weeks or a couple of months. Which should save us all reading endless back and forths discussing the subject on here from people that dont have a clue.

 

Please!

 

Yup, and a lot has been cleared up which should stop most of the shite being pedalled

[Candi_Hills]

De Marco's first loss ?

 

If course it isn't. He hasn't lost cases, but he'll have lost judgments as part of cases he ended up winning. What do you think he is like Mr Perfect?

 

Could also be argued this is simply a manoeuvre, which is backed up by the fact its been made public.  The chairman now has the question of bias hanging over him, not just in proceedings but publically.

 

The HUGE problem people seem to be ignoring is the fact that it's pretty obvious that PIF are controlled by MBS and piracy is still an outstanding issue. People who claim "as if he'll be ringing the manager telling him to drop the left back" are completely missing the point.

Until piracy is resolved this is going nowhere.

 

I agree that seems likely but we don't know for sure. After all, what would be the point of pursuing arbitration if they didn't think they could win?

 

 

[Yorkie]

I like Ben Jacobs. Seems to consistently offer a balanced and intelligent take on the whole thing.

[Dr Jinx]

I think today this has cleared up a few things, I think the need for two threads is pointless at this point. Can they be merged, or the other deleted?

 

If you read the full rulings, there’s 50 times more info to digest than all of the Twitter itk bollocks on the other thread.

 

It’s good news that PIF are still at the table, De Marco couldn’t be arguing on their behalf if they hadn’t given some input. So there is optimism.

 

The bad news is that the establishment are conspiring to block this still. That’s the reality.

 

I think both can live on the same thread?

[Dokko]

I like Ben Jacobs. Seems to consistently offer a balanced and intelligent take on the whole thing.

 

Please remember Bein Jacobs was fully in the Qatar camp until very recently when he saw the media profiles of ordinary folk sky rocket off the back of this. He's playing a very cute game, don't be sucked in by it.

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

If we can successfully argue PIF and the gov are separate, piracy wont have a thing to do with it anymore, surely?

 

It all rests on the ruling as far as I understand. KSA dont want to be listed as owners, which is understandable. And the PLs insistence that the correct body hadnt been put forward to undertake the test means the deal, currently, isn't there. If it is determined they are separate, we can continue with the same proposal to the PL and they have to judge it differently from the first. If we lose that, I cant see them coming back in.

[Wolfcastle]

Feels to me like not only is it no more (or less) likely to happen but we wont find out why it was blocked and those responsible will get away with it, when I at least wanted to take some people down with us for connyving us to doom. Exposing and finishing them would have been some consolation.

[Yorkie]

I think today this has cleared up a few things, I think the need for two threads is pointless at this point. Can they be merged, or the other deleted?

 

If you read the full rulings, there’s 50 times more info to digest than all of the Twitter itk bollocks on the other thread.

 

It’s good news that PIF are still at the table, De Marco couldn’t be arguing on their behalf if they hadn’t given some input. So there is optimism.

 

The bad news is that the establishment are conspiring to block this still. That’s the reality.

 

I think both can live on the same thread?

 

I don't personally interpret it in that way; strictly speaking, the O&D Test which was applied to our takeover ceased to continue when the Saudis withdrew. So, at present, there's nothing that the establishment can 'conspire to block'.

 

What I still don't fully understand about arbitration is with regards to what it's actually seeking to achieve. Are NUFC trying to prove that the EPL were influenced by external pressures and/or used delay tactics, and therefore acted unlawfully? Or are NUFC trying to prove that the EPL has no good reason to dispute the arguments regarding separation of PIF and KSA? Or both?

 

If the latter of those two contentions was determined in NUFC's/PIF's favour, then the takeover would presumably be wrapped up, regardless of which way the first one went.

[Dr Jinx]

I think today this has cleared up a few things, I think the need for two threads is pointless at this point. Can they be merged, or the other deleted?

 

If you read the full rulings, there’s 50 times more info to digest than all of the Twitter itk bollocks on the other thread.

 

It’s good news that PIF are still at the table, De Marco couldn’t be arguing on their behalf if they hadn’t given some input. So there is optimism.

 

The bad news is that the establishment are conspiring to block this still. That’s the reality.

 

I think both can live on the same thread?

 

I don't personally interpret it in that way; strictly speaking, the O&D Test which was applied to our takeover ceased to continue when the Saudis withdrew. So, at present, there's nothing that the establishment can 'conspire to block'.

 

What I still don't fully understand about arbitration is with regards to what it's actually seeking to achieve. Are NUFC trying to prove that the EPL were influenced by external pressures and/or used delay tactics, and therefore acted unlawfully? Or are NUFC trying to prove that the EPL has no good reason to dispute the arguments regarding separation of PIF and KSA? Or both?

 

If the latter of those two contentions was determined in NUFC's/PIF's favour, then the takeover would presumably be wrapped up, regardless of which way the first one went.

 

Having read the email exchanges between Beloff, Bird & Bird and the other arbitrator put forward by the PL, it’s clear that the advice given by Beloff in 2017 contains something they do not want revelead at any cost. In fact, the information that comes to light in this case cannot be made public at all. It does appear that there is more at play for the PL in this than just the takeover.

 

It’s an odd thing for the PL to argue so strongly for unless there has been some sort of collusion. If it’s as open and shut as they claim it to be, what on earth could come out that would be so damaging to them?

 

And based on today’s learning, the arbitration is about the conclusion of naming KSA as a director. NUFC want this resolved so that the rest of the test is carried out. Basically if KSA is named, the takeover will not go ahead as it opens the test up to all sorts of other issues.

 

If they can prove that PIF are a separate entity, everything becomes very straight forward. In fact, the only thing blocking it would be relegation and even that’s up for debate.

[Wandy]

That's brilliant from Jacobs tbh. Does away with all of the conspiracy theory stuff.

 

Its in the lap of the Gods now. And, to be honest, I'm not at all confident of it going through.

[Jinky Jim]

I think today this has cleared up a few things, I think the need for two threads is pointless at this point. Can they be merged, or the other deleted?

 

If you read the full rulings, there’s 50 times more info to digest than all of the Twitter itk bollocks on the other thread.

 

It’s good news that PIF are still at the table, De Marco couldn’t be arguing on their behalf if they hadn’t given some input. So there is optimism.

 

The bad news is that the establishment are conspiring to block this still. That’s the reality.

 

I think both can live on the same thread?

 

What happens when the inevitable wind up merchants appear and scuttle any optimisn we might have.....I’m sure the optimism thread will remain quiet for a while, but needs to remain in place ........just in case.

[B-more Mag]

We all need to erase the concept of "separate entity" from our heads -- that's not the issue, and by all accounts KSA and PIF are "separate entities" that have distinct legal identities. The issue is whether the EPL's provisional decision that KSA could be deemed a director, due to control, violated any of the standards I quoted earlier. (PIF and KSA can be  separate legal entities with KSA still having sufficient control to be a director.)

[GWN]

These Ashley years have been a fucking mess.

 

It goes on , it’s grim.

[Doctor Zaius]

 

This is the key, always has been.

 

MBS chairman, deal with state owned companies, .gov address and a board made up of ministers but not a separate entity to KSA. Alright, good luck proving that.

 

 

[gdm]

I think today this has cleared up a few things, I think the need for two threads is pointless at this point. Can they be merged, or the other deleted?

 

If you read the full rulings, there’s 50 times more info to digest than all of the Twitter itk bollocks on the other thread.

 

It’s good news that PIF are still at the table, De Marco couldn’t be arguing on their behalf if they hadn’t given some input. So there is optimism.

 

The bad news is that the establishment are conspiring to block this still. That’s the reality.

 

I think both can live on the same thread?

 

What happens when the inevitable wind up merchants appear and scuttle any optimisn we might have.....I’m sure the optimism thread will remain quiet for a while, but needs to remain in place ........just in case.

 

There is wind up merchants on both sides. It needs to stop. We are not going to hear anything until the arbitration ruling so there’s no real point of a thread to see what RE Maine says because unless he is privy to the arbitration dealings as said many times he knows fuck all.

 

Also the constant ‘look who Ashley has hired, how can we lose patter irks me too. Both sides have very competent and impressive people on their side.

 

Let’s try and concentrate on facts only or we are going to drive ourselves and each other mad until this plays out

[Dr Jinx]

We all need to erase the concept of "separate entity" from our heads -- that's not the issue, and by all accounts KSA and PIF are "separate entities" that have distinct legal identities. The issue is whether the EPL's provisional decision that KSA could be deemed a director, due to control, violated any of the standards I quoted earlier. (PIF and KSA can be  separate legal entities with KSA still having sufficient control to be a director.)

 

I don’t believe the PL have accused the buyers or the sellers or violating the rules of the o&d’s test.

 

Also at this point I don’t even believe they rejected it out of hand. The sticking point was getting KSA (or MBS) listed as a director. It never moved on from that point.

 

Any NUFC fan trying to reason that PIF is not under control by KSA is clutching at straws and to be honest, Mike Ashley probably was too by hiring that legal team, they are basically arguing semantics. If they win it’ll be on the technicality of wording.

 

Or, and again tin foil hat time, the other two on the arbitration panel, both have political ties, NUFC’s nominee Lord Neuberger was brought in by Conservative Ken Clarke whereas the PL’s choice was brought in by Jack Straw. Some lobbying by KSA/PIF could be useful, corrupt yes but that’s the game they’re playing.

[gdm]

These Ashley years have been a fucking mess.

 

It goes on , it’s grim.

 

Listened to that press box confidential podcast with Craig hope and Luke edwards going thru the Eras from Keegan, dalglish, SBR and the Ashley years and fuck me it hit home how grim things have been since Sir Bobby

[B-more Mag]

We all need to erase the concept of "separate entity" from our heads -- that's not the issue, and by all accounts KSA and PIF are "separate entities" that have distinct legal identities. The issue is whether the EPL's provisional decision that KSA could be deemed a director, due to control, violated any of the standards I quoted earlier. (PIF and KSA can be  separate legal entities with KSA still having sufficient control to be a director.)

 

I don’t believe the PL have accused the buyers or the sellers or violating the rules of the o&d’s test.

 

Also at this point I don’t even believe they rejected it out of hand. The sticking point was getting KSA (or MBS) listed as a director. It never moved on from that point.

Any NUFC fan trying to reason that PIF is not under control by KSA is clutching at straws and to be honest, Mike Ashley probably was too by hiring that legal team, they are basically arguing semantics. If they win it’ll be on the technicality of wording.

 

Or, and again tin foil hat time, the other two on the arbitration panel, both have political ties, NUFC’s nominee Lord Neuberger was brought in by Conservative Ken Clarke whereas the PL’s choice was brought in by Jack Straw. Some lobbying by KSA/PIF could be useful, corrupt yes but that’s the game they’re playing.

 

Correct. The judgment expressly says the issue is the PL's decision that KSA would be a director and that the PL had not gone on to make any decision about whether KSA would be disqualified as a director.

 

I don’t believe the PL have accused the buyers or the sellers or violating the rules of the o&d’s test.

 

My point about the standards wasn't so much about violation of the O&D tests as it is that the PL has to prove one of these grounds with respect to the PL's decision that KSA is a director:

 

Here are the available grounds for review in a Board Dispute:

 

Section XX.5. In the case of a Board Dispute, the only grounds for review shall be that the decision:

 

    X.5.1. was reached outside the jurisdiction of the Board;

 

    X.5.2. could not have been reached by any reasonable Board which had applied its mind properly to the issues to be decided;

 

    X.5.3. was reached as a result of fraud, malice or bad faith; or

 

    X.5.4. was contrary to English law; and

 

directly and foreseeably prejudices the interests of a Person or Persons who were in the contemplation of the Board at the time that the decision was made as being directly affected by it and who suffer loss as a result of that decision.

[Scoot]

 

This is the key, always has been.

 

MBS chairman, deal with state owned companies, .gov address and a board made up of ministers but not a separate entity to KSA. Alright, good luck proving that.

 

 

 

Simple as that eh? Give de Marco a message on Twitter, tell him not to bother as you've cracked it.

[Yorkie]

 

This is the key, always has been.

 

MBS chairman, deal with state owned companies, .gov address and a board made up of ministers but not a separate entity to KSA. Alright, good luck proving that.

 

 

 

Simple as that eh? Give de Marco a message on Twitter, tell him not to bother as you've cracked it.

 

Aye, basically. To an absolute layman like all of us, it looks like there's a fundamental connection. But there's a reason why some lawyers are on a million quid an hour.

[B-more Mag]

The thing about litigation and arbitration is even if you've got a case you think you're 100% going to win, there's at least a 10% chance you lose, and when you've got a case you think you're 100% going to lose, there's always at least a 10% chance you win. And most cases don't come anywhere close to approaching either of those poles.