Newcastle United 2 - 4 West Ham - 15/08/21 - Post-match reaction from page 18

[KaKa]

35 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

I don't really think this argument makes sense. It's highlighting the situation, it's getting people talking about it, it has already worked. It's saying that we acknowledge that racism is a problem and we want to bring it into the open. It's not really meant to reduce racial tension, maybe racial tension needs to increase a bit so that every group can have their voices heard.

 

If your argument is that nothing can improve racism, then I don't quite get it. 

 

All sounds really nice. At the end of the day though, in a few months we'll have another stadium making monkey noises or more players getting abuse on social media.

 

Another big fuss will be made about how awful it is and maybe we'll progress from kneeling to having everyone lay completely prostrate on the floor to encourage even more acknowledgement and discussion to bring it out into the open further.

 

And from what I can see all that comes from this is that now people can argue more back and forth accusing this and the other of being racist over whether they boo the kneeling, which completely trivialises the real prejudice people face in reality.

 

It's all a complete farce. I would encourage anyone that is a minority group to save themselves and learn how to overcome this bullshit for their own well being. Never allow anyone to use this nonsense to get a rise out of you and feel any lesser about who you are.

 

[ToonArmy1892]

28 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

 

Also quelle surprise ToonArmy doesn’t think kneeling is a good idea, I’m shocked. 

So what, are you calling me racist?

 

You're a daft lad you like, think you're an expert on everything and take snide shots at people who don't agree with you.

 

 

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by ToonArmy1892

[Wullie]

"Our two best players and our new £20m signing are black, hope they feel welcome and want to stay for a long time. Say, the players are about to make an anti racism gesture for two whole seconds, I've got a good idea..."

[KaKa]

15 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Obviously I can’t speak to the experience of black people, and Kaka has a more lived experience than me, but his argument strikes me as one from a position of privilege. Sure you can surround yourself with decent people and move on, but not everyone can. There will be plenty of people out there having to deal with shitty racist cunts. That’s the reality. Of course one gesture doesn’t “stop racism”, but what the hell so let’s not do anything at all, to try and stop any societal ill because it won’t eradicate the problem.

 

Also quelle surprise ToonArmy doesn’t think kneeling is a good idea, I’m shocked. 

 

Are there not laws now in place to punish people for these offences? Let the authorities focus on that.

 

All this other stuff is just complete nonsense and is now just causing more palava with people now trivialising racism to whether or not folks boo players kneeling. Do you really expect me to believe everyone that applauds that kneeling is not carrying on a completely different way in private? No chance.

[ToonArmy1892]

7 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

Did I call you racist? Don’t think so. Just not surprised there would be a crossover between anti vaxx/not supporting taking the knee.

 

Damn, daft lad, hurtful. Also that’s great, please feel free to not respond to anything I say.

Put me on ignore then if you are so bothered about my comments that you have to get petty.

[KaKa]

Just now, ManDoon said:

Did I call you racist? Don’t think so. Just not surprised there would be a crossover between anti vaxx/not supporting taking the knee.

 

Damn, daft lad, hurtful. Also that’s great, please feel free to not respond to anything I say.

 

I've seen a few comments on here in this sort of vein now, and honestly I just feel like black folks are being used as pawns in a larger political debate that is happening in society now, and honestly that just sucks, and it is really unfortunate.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

Just seen that little weasel Darren Grimes went, said he booed the knee and also wore one black and one white trainer the zany little thundercunt

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

Of course there are yeah, but I mean I still don’t think that means we shouldn’t have any symbolic gestures. And no I don’t believe that but I don’t really see your point. Nothing ever works 100 percent so let’s not bother with it? 
 

Imo it’s good to highlight issues in society because it keeps them at the forefront of public consciousness. It also outs the racists booing it. We can both have laws and also have gestures such a kneeling. 

 

Okay, so let's assume everyone stops booing this gesture. So what? All sorted now then? All it really means is that they're just going along with it in public. It's a completely empty meaningless process.

 

As soon as they're hidden online or a part of a big enough crowd it will be the same stuff we've seen for decades now. Decades.

[Happinesstan]

11 minutes ago, Wullie said:

"Our two best players and our new £20m signing are black, hope they feel welcome and want to stay for a long time. Say, the players are about to make an anti racism gesture for two whole seconds, I've got a good idea..."

You could always take the respect for our players that happen to be black as a sure sign tat the booing isn't because of racism. There probably are one or two racists in the pack but I'm certain [for the majority] it's a political statement. Without doubt, it's not the place for it, and if the guilty parties get banned for life they will be no loss.

[RS]

Racists are predominantly uneducated, of limited intelligence or are easily led by others. (Often all of the above)

 

it will take generations to change this (if at all). You only need to look at religion as a guide to the stupidity of humans. 
 

In reality there’s only two types of people in this world:  Nice people and arseholes.  

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, RS said:

Racists are predominantly uneducated, of limited intelligence or are easily led by others. (Often all of the above)

 

it will take generations to change this (if at all). You only need to look at religion as a guide to the stupidity of humans. 
 

In reality there’s only two types of people in this world:  Nice people and arseholes.  

Oh come on. It's been changing over the generations. We're a world away from the late 70s/early 80s. Look at the past when looking to the future.

[KaKa]

2 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I specially remember hearing a conversation on a bus when I was teenager of two lads lamenting the fact they couldn’t go “paki bashing”

anymore. So I do think having public awareness of issues is good because you wouldn't hear that conversation today.
 

Whoever they were targeting doesn’t have the choice of moving on, or not letting it affect them because they are gonna get violently attacked for no reason. It’s not that simple. That was a regular sentiment in the midlands in the early 2000s 

 

There's a post on here about how folks were hearing people being openly racist in the pub after the England loss on penalties. This kind of talk is still alive and well in my opinion. So this stuff still goes on to varying degrees.

 

Ultimately, where we differ in opinion is that you believe that having people be less open in the way they might express these things means some progress is being made. I don't agree though, ultimately they still feel the same way and still teach their kids the same thing, and are just now more sly about it, which in some ways is even more concerning.

[RS]

4 minutes ago, Happinesstan said:

Oh come on. It's been changing over the generations. We're a world away from the late 70s/early 80s. Look at the past when looking to the future.

Are we?  I’d agree it’s changing but why are we still talking about it if we were a “world away”.  It’s still here. It’s still massive and it looks like it’s here for generations to come. 

[Guest reefatoon]

Hope JonnyB's head isn't too sore this morning.

[Happinesstan]

1 minute ago, RS said:

Are we?  I’d agree it’s changing but why are we still talking about it if we were a “world away”.  It’s still here. It’s still massive and it looks like it’s here for generations to come. 

I think we are. We have two generations that have grown up in an environment focussed on eradicating racism. In the 70s/80s people were coming from an era of tolerance. Parents in those times were more tolerant of their own parents' hatred of the other because they had fought in wars against the others that they hated. I, personally, can still excuse my Grandad for referring to the Japanese as Japs,  for example. Doesn't mean I do the same, as I have no reason to do so, and I will always remind his daughter of that.

[manorpark]

14 minutes ago, RS said:

Are we?  I’d agree it’s changing but why are we still talking about it if we were a “world away”.  It’s still here. It’s still massive and it looks like it’s here for generations to come. 

 

It has always been simple, it still is, and it always will be, unforunately. It is a permanent 'human weakness' called Bigotry.

 

So many people, so very many people, get plain straightforward pleasure out of bigotry, so they will never give it up.

 

The dictionary definition of bigotry explains it all, and our "big three" fun-filled bigotries have remained the same all throughout my lifetime . . (1) Racial Bigotry (2) Sexual Bigotry (3) Religious Bigotry.

 

People love it all so much, and while the emphasis may superficially change from time to time, as a species we will never give them up.

 

 

Edited August 16, 2021 by manorpark

[KaKa]

4 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

That’s fair, I’m not saying I don’t think it  is still openly expressed it definitely is but I mean from a harm reduction standpoint it’s better than even if people have those sort of beliefs, in a decent society they can’t express them openly or harmfully.

 

I think also there might be some who feel the reaction from those around them as a rejection of those beliefs and begin to question it. There will of course alway be racists, ultimately education and socializing with people is the only way to really prevent that but I don’t think any attempt is therefore useless. 
 

Newcastle is honestly one of the most inclusive cities I’ve ever lived in, from my own experience things have changed significantly over the years in other parts of the country. It would be unheard of for someone to be openly gay at school, but now it’s totally different, and that’s through public conversation and discourse. The laws didn’t change. So I think it is possible to make progress for sure. 

 

 

I hear you, and the bit in bold I certainly agree with most. I think we all just have to be more patient with each other. I think over time familiarity with different people is ultimately what helps change these sorts of views if anything ever will. It's certainly going to come with a lot of growing pains in the meantime though.

 

In the immediate I don't think it's at all helpful when people start accusing others of being racist so lightly over the more trivial things, as this engenders more divisiveness and ill will. I think we really need to try and move away from that.

[Bishops Finger]

19 minutes ago, reefatoon said:

Hope JonnyB's head isn't too sore this morning.

I fucking do coz he had mine battered last night 

[Raconteur]

I hesitate to engage because racism in Australian culture is different from racism in the UK (or US). We have our own right-wing culture warrior fuckwits, but whenever I see the UK or US equivalent, I know I'm missing historical and cultural context. Even so, it strikes me that the original message of taking the knee - which was explicitly "No room for racism in football" - has been hijacked by right-wing cultural warrior fuckwits who have been allowed to rebrand anti-racism as Marxism.

 

It shouldn't fall on black players to explain why racism is bad, but I'd have thought Wilson and Saint-Maximin (ie very popular players), via the club's social media, saying something like "Booing us taking the knee is cheering for racism" might refocus the message. 

[Fantail Breeze]

It’s mad people can get so worked up by something as simple as taking the knee.

 

I often think football goes too far in acknowledging different political topics, but racism is a very active issue in football. So I see no issue with it being forced down people’s throats at any/every opportunity to deliver the message.

[r0cafella]

29 minutes ago, Raconteur said:

I hesitate to engage because racism in Australian culture is different from racism in the UK (or US). We have our own right-wing culture warrior fuckwits, but whenever I see the UK or US equivalent, I know I'm missing historical and cultural context. Even so, it strikes me that the original message of taking the knee - which was explicitly "No room for racism in football" - has been hijacked by right-wing cultural warrior fuckwits who have been allowed to rebrand anti-racism as Marxism.

 

It shouldn't fall on black players to explain why racism is bad, but I'd have thought Wilson and Saint-Maximin (ie very popular players), via the club's social media, saying something like "Booing us taking the knee is cheering for racism" might refocus the message. 

Great post. 
 

not to go too far off topic but it’s a tried and tested tactic of the right to label everything they disagree with as Marxist. 

[Guest HTT II]

On the taking of the knee, my good friend who is Geordie and black says it’s not part of or shouldn’t be part of say BLM, but for him it’s a non violent two fingers up to all the racist cunts out there. As a white man I can’t have any say on what it should or shouldn’t mean, all I am in agreement with is the message is clear, racism and racists can go and fuck off, the set of cunts. That’s my take. 

[Lazarus]

2 minutes ago, r0cafella said:

Great post. 
 

not to go too far off topic but it’s a tried and tested tactic of the right to label everything they disagree with as Marxist. 

 

Where did the whole Marxism even come from in relation to BLM?

 

 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1 hour ago, KaKa said:

 

All sounds really nice. At the end of the day though, in a few months we'll have another stadium making monkey noises or more players getting abuse on social media.

 

Another big fuss will be made about how awful it is and maybe we'll progress from kneeling to having everyone lay completely prostrate on the floor to encourage even more acknowledgement and discussion to bring it out into the open further.

 

And from what I can see all that comes from this is that now people can argue more back and forth accusing this and the other of being racist over whether they boo the kneeling, which completely trivialises the real prejudice people face in reality.

 

It's all a complete farce. I would encourage anyone that is a minority group to save themselves and learn how to overcome this bullshit for their own well being. Never allow anyone to use this nonsense to get a rise out of you and feel any lesser about who you are.

 

I’m not sure I fully understand where you’re coming from.
 

Of course there will still be racism in the future, all we can do is look for progress.

 

And maybe people will debate the gesture and object to it, as they do to anything that demands change, thought or threatens the status quo. 

 

I just don’t see why that means it isn’t worthwhile.
 

Speaking as a white person who thought they knew a fair bit, there are many dimensions to the race issue that I wasn’t aware of before Black Lives Matter made me look into anti-racism in much more detail. 

[KaKa]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I’m not sure I fully understand where you’re coming from.
 

Of course there will still be racism in the future, all we can do is look for progress.

 

And maybe people will debate the gesture and object to it, as they do to anything that demands change, thought or threatens the status quo. 

 

I just don’t see why that means it isn’t worthwhile.
 

Speaking as a white person who thought they knew a fair bit, there are many dimensions to the race issue that I wasn’t aware of before Black Lives Matter made me look into anti-racism in much more detail. 

 

Okay, but I'm assuming you were never racist in the first place.

 

The kind of people that hold these kinds of views are completely uninterested in these sorts of gestures, and if anything revel in all the fuss that comes about from it, and can't wait for the next chance to carry on.