The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[Billy Pilgrim]

I’ve spent my entire life windmilling against organised religion, monarchy, misogyny, racism and anti lgbt bigotry. I am not going to throw that all away because some horrible people bought us. I am perfectly well equipped to think two things at once and you won’t catch me dressing up like an Arab, going after kashoggi’s missus or pretending that the Saudis are not a bunch of bellends. But also I will enjoy every second of any success, because life is short and cruel and I would be a right sanctimonious dickhead if I pretended I was not going to have my cake and eat it. 

[christ]

49 minutes ago, veriaqa said:

 

Well, I think it down to "superior white" mentality. The worldview that see anything that different from white culture as barbaric, backward, etc.

On the face of it this is a ridiculous comment, however there is a sliver of truth there.
 

There are two elements to this, that I think run in tandem but are both equally important. The first is the desire to civilise, which has been ingrained since the days of Empire. You still see it nowadays whenever Western military intervention in [insert country here] is mooted, or when we talk about foreigners coming over to the country and not speaking the language or holding on to their traditions. The second is human rights as a cloak for capitalism. Handwringing about human rights, placing it as a purely cultural issue, is a very convenient way to distract from the fact the global economic system we live under is inherently barbaric, restrictive and exploitative.

 

The problem is that we’re talking about issues far beyond divergent world views. There’s a very tangible real world impact to Saudi’s approach beyond the borders of SA itself. 

[Newcastle Fan]

39 minutes ago, Tiresias said:

It's not that they are imposing their values, it is that they are trying to improve their reputation by getting involved in sport. Ultimately as horrible as it is to think of people who have been beaten for having sex outside marriage, for being gay etc, that is none of my business, plenty of misery elsewhe in the world. But to think we are being used as a tool to cover that sort of shit up is not ideal. 

 

And again, it feels I end up being stawmanned into a position I don't have. I don't think the sportwashing will work that well, I think it may in fact amplify human rights concerns not cover up. I also don't think whether they spend the money on us or not much will change because of it and I don't think they are unique, this is all ont eh league and not on us. But this is not cos I fear they will come impose their values here. I am worried because already people seem to think aaah they are our owners, all their opinions must be brilliant homophobia is cool lololol. They will say all teh right things, and then do differently at home than they do with us, because they are hypocrites. Lets not be the same.

 

 

 

 

 

Assuming that people here will suddenly be more tolerant to homophobia because Saudi Arabia bought the club is like Saudi hardliners thinking that buying us will mean that Newcastle's drinking culture will suddenly invade saudi and gay Newcastle fans will will start holidaying in Jeddah and Riyadh, it just doesn't work like that, the morale fabric of society will not disintegrate over the purchase of a football club, Newcastle is an incredibly inclusive, diverse and tolerant place, one of the best in the world. and any attempts to change that will be swiftly met and dealt with from the overwhelming majority of people.

[Hhtoon]

30 minutes ago, neesy111 said:

 

Thousands out of what?  It'll not be a sizeable percentage as we do have a large fanbase.  I don't know a single fan out of my friends who are defending the Saudi regime in any way.

 

Exactly, there will be the usual morons of course. I happily labeled Ashley a cunt for his sports direct dealings etc and I'll do the same for any SA dubious activities. Doesn't change how I feel about NUFC though - I am capable of dividing issues.

[Tiresias]

3 minutes ago, Newcastle Fan said:

 

 

Assuming that people here will suddenly be more tolerant to homophobia because Saudi Arabia bought the club is like Saudi hardliners thinking that buying us will mean that Newcastle's drinking culture will suddenly invade saudi and gay Newcastle fans will will start holidaying in Jeddah and Riyadh, it just doesn't work like that, the morale fabric of society will not disintegrate over the purchase of a football club, Newcastle is an incredibly inclusive, diverse and tolerant place, one of the best in the world. and any attempts to change that will be swiftly met and dealt with from the overwhelming majority of people.

 

I broadly agree but there was a bit of, well amanda staverley said they were pro rainbow laces so how dare you challenge saudi arabia on here earlier. Hopefully small minority

[Deuce]

2 hours ago, RUHRLYASLEEVESUP said:

& im not your pal so FO

 Deputy Dawg said it better.

[ElDiablo]

This chap sums up my views perfectly.

 

 

 

[Kanji]

6 minutes ago, Tomato Deuce said:

 Deputy Dawg said it better.

the legend.

[christ]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

I don’t think people who aren’t brain dead have a problem with people not speaking the language, or holding on to tradition. I find the idea of hiding behind “culture” as shield of criticism to be a poor one. If for example a country decides that peadophilia is okay, because of cultural reasons it’s not imperialism to critique it and it should be rightfully critiqued.

Don’t get me wrong, I agree completely. I just thought it was interesting to tease out the small nugget of truth in the initial post. 

[Shak]

I teach a Saudi woman who's really into football. Asked her if she thought many people would stop supporting their teams and just change to being Newcastle fans, she reckons pretty much everyone there will. Definitely a big deal for them.

 

I'm happy about the takeover, football is too utterly fucked for me to ever care about it even half as much I used to but it'll be nice to support a team that tries to win things.

[HaydnNUFC]

That people are having to feel the need to justify why they're supporting the football club they always have done is bizarre to me.

 

State money is part of football now and football now in the 21st century is fucked.

[leffe186]

1 hour ago, HaydnNUFC said:

I think True Geordie nailed it: football is fucked. Its been fucked for years, we've benefitted from it being fucked for a change. States shouldn't own clubs, but a precedent was set in 2008. You can be aware what these owners are, whilst still enjoying going to watch the club you always have done for years and not feel guilty or made to feel guilty by fans of other clubs who magically care about the human rights record of Saudi Arabia and wider MENA, Miguel Delaney or Kaveh Sovhekol. 

Sure. You shouldn’t feel guilty in relation to those guys. But what about the fans of other clubs who ALWAYS cared about the human rights stuff and still do?

 

Supporting a football club means different things to different people, and can be incredibly complex. I’m not going to try to tell anybody to not support a specific team because of their owners, or because the manager is a cunt, or whatever. There have always been inherent hypocrisies involved in supporting big clubs. It’s just…it’s ok to point them out I guess.

 

Deuce posted a nice Twitter thread about boycotts in Chat. Boycotts need  to have a specific goal, to occur if people think that goal is attainable and to cause personal and general inconvenience. Some people feel like they SHOULD participate, but don’t want to make the sacrifices needed, and feel the need to justify it because they resent the guilt they feel. They post bullshit like “I have a condition that means I have to eat Rice Krispies so I can’t boycott Kellogg’s” or whatever. There IS guilt involved in buying a season ticket for a club run by Mike Ashley, just as there’s a different guilt involved in buying a season ticket for a club run by Saudi Arabia. It’s just up to the individual to decide.
 

I guess I don’t really have a point, other than maybe to observe that people who hurled quite reasonable vitriol at those who refused to boycott Ashley should understand why some others might be a bit miffed that they embrace the Saudis. We all know the differences. Football IS broken. It’s just so bloody hard to walk away from it.

[HaydnNUFC]

1 minute ago, leffe186 said:

Sure. You shouldn’t feel guilty in relation to those guys. But what about the fans of other clubs who ALWAYS cared about the human rights stuff and still do?

 

Supporting a football club means different things to different people, and can be incredibly complex. I’m not going to try to tell anybody to not support a specific team because of their owners, or because the manager is a cunt, or whatever. There have always been inherent hypocrisies involved in supporting big clubs. It’s just…it’s ok to point them out I guess.

 

Deuce posted a nice Twitter thread about boycotts in Chat. Boycotts need  to have a specific goal, to occur if people think that goal is attainable and to cause personal and general inconvenience. Some people feel like they SHOULD participate, but don’t want to make the sacrifices needed, and feel the need to justify it because they resent the guilt they feel. They post bullshit like “I have a condition that means I have to eat Rice Krispies so I can’t boycott Kellogg’s” or whatever. There IS guilt involved in buying a season ticket for a club run by Mike Ashley, just as there’s a different guilt involved in buying a season ticket for a club run by Saudi Arabia. It’s just up to the individual to decide.
 

I guess I don’t really have a point, other than maybe to observe that people who hurled quite reasonable vitriol at those who refused to boycott Ashley should understand why some others might be a bit miffed that they embrace the Saudis. We all know the differences. Football IS broken. It’s just so bloody hard to walk away from it.

 

Fairs. FWIW I disagree with Saudi flag waving, having ?? on social media profiles, dressing up as sheikhs, it makes us look like we're championing a torrid regime. I'm unbelievably happy that Ashley has finally gone, and I'm happy that we're well and truly in the money, in spite of knowing where its coming from.

 

But Newcastle United is my club, always has been and always will be no matter who the owners are, and they can't take that away from me. People need to educate themselves and who these people owning the club now are, but I generally resent the idea of having to justify why I support the club I always have done.

[leffe186]

2 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

That people are having to feel the need to justify why they're supporting the football club they always have done is bizarre to me.

 

State money is part of football now and football now in the 21st century is fucked.

I mean, you either feel the need or you don’t. You don’t HAVE to. Supporting the club to me was (and deep down, is) about family, community, and tribalism. That has good and bad points. There were always other aspects of the club itself and football that were problematic. Those other aspects just became more and more prominent until they reached a tipping point for me.

[David Edgar]

2 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

FWIW I disagree with Saudi flag waving, having ?? on social media profiles, dressing up as sheikhs, it makes us look like we're championing a torrid regime.

 

[Haz]

I have wrestled with this for some time, much like eating meat and have reached no conclusion. I love meat but could not step into a slaughterhouse. The suffering would be too. much.

 

Thus it is with our dalliance with Saudi Arabia. It is my fervent hope that their exposure to western values will alter their imperatives and that they achieve a more humane society. O believe the crown Prince has begun such a programme but you can tell me Im wrong about that. I must remain sanguine until I reach some compromise.

 

In the meantime, I am reminded that we have sold them Tornado's, Typhoons, F35's and other weapons designed to kill. If the British government is comfortable with that, Im not going to knock myself out worrying over the club I love. Someone earlier said our board has Jews and Arabs working together. Is a start.

[HaydnNUFC]

2 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

I mean, you either feel the need or you don’t. You don’t HAVE to. Supporting the club to me was (and deep down, is) about family, community, and tribalism. That has good and bad points. There were always other aspects of the club itself and football that were problematic. Those other aspects just became more and more prominent until they reached a tipping point for me.

 

Fair enough.

 

Social media makes it worse, the cesspit that it is.

[Kid Icarus]

59 minutes ago, Slim said:

Support the team not the regime.

 

Genuinely can't work out why this isn't a more popular outlook considering how popular it was under Ashley.

 

 

 

 

[Smal]

Just now, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Fairs. FWIW I disagree with Saudi flag waving, having ?? on social media profiles, dressing up as sheikhs, it makes us look like we're championing a torrid regime. I'm unbelievably happy that Ashley has finally gone, and I'm happy that we're well and truly in the money, in spite of knowing where its coming from.

 

But Newcastle United is my club, always has been and always will be no matter who the owners are, and they can't take that away from me. People need to educate themselves and who these people owning the club now are, but I generally resent the idea of having to justify why I support the club I always have done.

I don’t think anybody is asking you to justify supporting the club are they? It’s fine. I hate this takeover but I’ll still be a Newcastle fan. It’s obviously an emotion I have no control over because I’d have binned it off ages ago otherwise  

 

Where it gets problematic is we have people in here (not you!) trying to justify the ethics of it (“well the UK government sells them arms so…” etc.). There is no ethical justification for this I’m afraid.

[leffe186]

Just now, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Fairs. FWIW I disagree with Saudi flag waving, having ?? on social media profiles, dressing up as sheikhs, it makes us look like we're championing a torrid regime. I'm unbelievably happy that Ashley has finally gone, and I'm happy that we're well and truly in the money, in spite of knowing where its coming from.

 

But Newcastle United is my club, always has been and always will be no matter who the owners are, and they can't take that away from me. People need to educate themselves and who these people owning the club now are, but I generally resent the idea of having to justify why I support the club I always have done.

I don’t know if I resent it. I always felt I had to justify it to an extent. Maybe it’s a little different if you grow up in an area with several big clubs, or with none. Seems to me that Froggy gets asked to justify it all the time .

[geordiesteve710]

37 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I’d also like to ask people on here who were staunchly “I don’t want to be city, selling your soul, just buying up the best talent/ oil club” if they feel that way now it’s us?

 

I remember there being quite a lot of anti city rhetoric, and people not wanting to end up like them. PIF are talking about the plan but it will end up like City eventually. It’s the logical conclusion 

 

I've never been overly vocal about it with other clubs, but this applies to me to an extent.

 

Was probably more applicable to me when Abramovic bought Chelsea rather than Man City's takeover. I didn't want us to be a rich dude's plaything. Fwiw, I still don't, but the past 20 years have demonstrated it's not a fad that's going to go away and it's a case of if you can't beat em, join em.

 

I am in agreement with your comments in the other thread- if we could have Leicester type owners rather than Man City type then I'd take that. Winning two trophies earning them would mean more than hoying billions at winning twenty trophies. But what we've got is what we've got, lets see how it turns out but either way it'll be massively preferential to Ashley imo.

[Superior Acuña]

I am pretty conflicted by this, and I'm pretty jealous of those who are celebrating without thinking about it. I've had trouble articulating things, I've tried in a long fb post. But I've found where I'll 'sell out' and that I'm not morally pure enough to drop my football club over this, and I will enjoy the success that comes  - after sticking with elite football through so much other moral shit. It's grim, but I'm not sure how this is supposed to be the red line all of a sudden. I've had numerous commiseration messages from friends in the US who know my politics and thought I was morally purer that I've had an awkward time replying to.

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by Inferior Acuña

[HaydnNUFC]

1 minute ago, Smal said:

I don’t think anybody is asking you to justify supporting the club are they? It’s fine. I hate this takeover but I’ll still be a Newcastle fan. It’s obviously an emotion I have no control over because I’d have binned it off ages ago otherwise  

 

Where it gets problematic is we have people in here (not you!) trying to justify the ethics of it (“well the UK government sells them arms so…” etc.). There is no ethical justification for this I’m afraid.

 

There's those out there who are of the idea that Newcastle fans should walk away from the club given these owners, which to me is mental. Just things I've seen online, sample size may well be small but just what I've seen.

[Smal]

Just now, HaydnNUFC said:

 

There's those out there who are of the idea that Newcastle fans should walk away from the club given these owners, which to me is mental. Just things I've seen online, sample size may well be small but just what I've seen.

Fair enough. I think that’s too far on their part.

[HaydnNUFC]

4 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

I don’t know if I resent it. I always felt I had to justify it to an extent. Maybe it’s a little different if you grow up in an area with several big clubs, or with none. Seems to me that Froggy gets asked to justify it all the time .

 

I mean in regards to us and these owners. Being implored to walk away from or limit support for your club you've supported for years because of who owns it by people from outside the region or fanbase.