The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[buzza]

Ok cool.

But they are a very small minority and do not represent the huge majority of us…

[christ]

I don’t think what Kaka has said is that bizarre. When the response to overt, vicious racism both in a footballing context and a societal context is consistently appalling then eventually the only conclusion you can draw is that unconsciously it’s basically endemic.
 

I naturally disagree with the suggestion that every individual England fan is on some level racist, but deep down I know the truth is that a lot of the gestures towards inclusivity are pretty surface level and prejudice still exists in spades. Beyond the 22 players on the pitch football is still overwhelmingly white.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, Jaqen said:

I mean it is extreme that you don't think black players should represent England because we secretly don't want it. 

 

I honestly think Saka and Bellingham are probably the two most loved England players in the current squad. 

 

 

 

The problem is when this stuff continues to happen, this is unfortunately how it ultimately gets received. I know it's uncomfortable for you guys to hear this, but I'm just being honest with you.

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, buzza said:

Ok cool.

But they are a very small minority and do not represent the huge majority of us…

 

Yes, I understand that this is likely the case.

 

Unfortunately though, over the years the demoralisation from this stuff just builds up, and you just end up at the point where you'd rather just not see these guys have to deal with it anymore, and you'd rather not have to put up with these kind of reports either.

[huss9]

29 minutes ago, Jaqen said:

I mean it is extreme that you don't think black players should represent England because we secretly don't want it. 

 

I honestly think Saka and Bellingham are probably the two most loved England players in the current squad. 

 

 

thats when things are going well....

wait till they miss a pel.

[TRon]

18 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’m ok with that, tbf.  I don’t follow Newcastle because of the players who play - it’s because I’m from Newcastle.  I was there watching football in the old second division which was unimaginably poor compared to what you’ll see today. Football is tribal; it isn’t about quality. 

 

That's fair enough, I was there too when we were in the old second division. But then it was a level playing ground, most of the players in the football league were from the British Isles, even the black ones who had bananas chucked at them.

 

Now we have all the world's big money players, whether investment funds, dodgy oligarchs or foreign states ploughing their money into our league. I just want to be on that level playing field. It's pointless being Little Newcastle local born and bred, when every other team is hoovering up the best players using foreign money.

[geordiesteve710]

16 hours ago, gazza ladra said:

Ok. My context is the US. I heard too many people -- white people (especially of my parents) generation manifest this contraction.

 

When they deny that the are a racist, they are denying that thay ideological racists. They are not racists by conviction. So in that sense, they are not racists.

 

But they are racists in their attitudes and language and many other ways  -- but they haven't had to think about racism because it has never had any effect in them. They completely unaware if their own racism. And the don't want or can't be bothered to think about it. (not joining the klan is enough for them to absolve themselves )

 

There's clearly some nuance that I'm not picking up on in this matter.

 

For a UK context I'm old enough to remember when there were (a very small minority of) England fans that didn't count goals scored by John Barnes for example. So they would say, for example, the result was a 2-1 defeat when we had drawn 2-2. Whilst an extreme example, this is the kind of attitude that I understand Kaka is referring to. We didn't say that there was some subtlety to what they were saying, we just called them fucking racists because that's what they were.

[The College Dropout]

I think that line is overstating the point @KaKa

[Heron]

I think the vast majority of English football fans just want England to win irrespective of skin colour to be honest like. I also think it's a somewhat lazy stereotype to suggest otherwise just because of a vocal minority that act like cunts to all people, not just black folk.

 

I care about Newcastle, England and Britain being great. Nowt else.

[gazza ladra]

2 hours ago, geordiesteve710 said:

There's clearly some nuance that I'm not picking up on in this matter.

 

For a UK context I'm old enough to remember when there were (a very small minority of) England fans that didn't count goals scored by John Barnes for example. So they would say, for example, the result was a 2-1 defeat when we had drawn 2-2. Whilst an extreme example, this is the kind of attitude that I understand Kaka is referring to. We didn't say that there was some subtlety to what they were saying, we just called them fucking racists because that's what they were.

Absolutely. Racists (the ideological ones) have love to troll. They like to act innocent and play the victim because they know it riles people up. Sartre wrote some interesting observations on the arguments of anti-Semites who argue in “bad faith”.  There is no talking to those people, you are just wasting your breath and they’ll take pleasure in trying to wind you up.

 

But there are people who say or repeat racist things or think in racist ways who are not committed to that world view. And they can be talked and will to reason, and will change their behavior. From my own experience, I have thoughtlessly said and thought all kind of racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, classist, ageist, etc. BS in my life, until someone (a friend or stranger) called me out on it -  and I thought about it, and changed.
 

 

 

 

Edited July 1, 2023 by gazza ladra

[Stifler]

On 30/06/2023 at 20:55, TheBrownBottle said:

You really think that the only people in the UK who’d have a problem with the govt buying a football club with £6bn of public money would be ‘other non Man U football fans’?

 

It would be everyone - including a good chunk of Man Utd fans.  It’s two-thirds of what the govt spends on housing, and there is a housing crisis.  ‘British govt buys Man Utd - nothing to see here’ is unlikely to be the headline nor the reaction. 

That’s my point though.

The argument wouldn’t be that nation states shouldn’t own football clubs, it would be ‘I don’t want my taxes funding a football club’.

 

[Stifler]

12 hours ago, gazza ladra said:

Absolutely. Racists (the ideological ones) have love to troll. They like to act innocent and play the victim because they know it riles people up. Sartre wrote some interesting observations on the arguments of anti-Semites who argue in “bad faith”.  There is no talking to those people, you are just wasting your breath and they’ll take pleasure in trying to wind you up.

 

But there are people who say or repeat racist things or think in racist ways who are not committed to that world view. And they can be talked and will to reason, and will change their behavior. From my own experience, I have thoughtlessly said and thought all kind of racist, sexist, homophobic, xenophobic, classist, ageist, etc. BS in my life, until someone (a friend or stranger) called me out on it -  and I thought about it, and changed.
 

 

 

 

 

Surely though you are highlighting the difference between racism and xenophobia?

Xenophobia to me is when someone has been fed lies and believes the lies and fears other races. Racism is knowing between the lies and hating people of other races.

 

I think my stepdad is xenophobic. He is one of these ones who shares the bullshit all over Facebook about immigrants coming here to takeover. His view is because he has spent decades surrounded by racists at work, in the social club, reading the Sun, and more recently it being all over his Facebook feed.

I don’t think he hates anyone, he’s just been caught up in all the bullshit and has heard it so much that he believes/fears it to be true.

[Gazzaschicken]

20 hours ago, huss9 said:

thats when things are going well....

wait till they miss a pel.

Most of the racist abuse after the euros final was not from inside the UK it was found.

[Newcastle Fan]

Every time i open this thread it gets weirder.

[Heron]

5 minutes ago, Newcastle Fan said:

Every time i open this thread it gets weirder.

[Rafalove]

4 hours ago, Gazzaschicken said:

Most of the racist abuse after the euros final was not from inside the UK it was found.

 

 

Twitter itself disputed this and said the bulk f abuse these players received was from the uk.

 

 

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1276432

[80]

1 hour ago, Rafalove said:

 

 

Twitter itself disputed this and said the bulk f abuse these players received was from the uk.

 

 

 

 

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1276432

That's interesting, I wasn't aware. So, superficially, you have (old regime) Twitter in dispute with the British police, Premier League and England setup. Not being sarcastic, I'm not sure who to believe... I thought misinformation experts were supposed to agree with eachother...

 

To throw another hand grenade in, it bothers me that frequently people are only obsessively paranoid about online bots, and manipulation of communities by malignant forces like the Russian and Chinese governments trying to cause societal discord, when it suits their personal worldview. It has to be considered plausible that actions are being taken to demoralise immigrants and disintegrate Western societies through fake racism at high profile times like the world cup, right? It would be a failure by them if they weren't already at it...

[Rafalove]

34 minutes ago, 80 said:

That's interesting, I wasn't aware. So, superficially, you have (old regime) Twitter in dispute with the British police, Premier League and England setup. Not being sarcastic, I'm not sure who to believe... I thought misinformation experts were supposed to agree with eachother...

 

To throw another hand grenade in, it bothers me that frequently people are only obsessively paranoid about online bots, and manipulation of communities by malignant forces like the Russian and Chinese governments trying to cause societal discord, when it suits their personal worldview. It has to be considered plausible that actions are being taken to demoralise immigrants and disintegrate Western societies through fake racism at high profile times like the world cup, right? It would be a failure by them if they weren't already at it...

 

 

 To be fair I want aware the British police, Premier league and England set up had claimed those Twitter accounts had come from abroad. My understanding was those claims came from spiked which is a right wing news site. Which made me skeptical.

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by Rafalove

[OCOCOL]

14 hours ago, Stifler said:

Surely though you are highlighting the difference between racism and xenophobia?

Xenophobia to me is when someone has been fed lies and believes the lies and fears other races. Racism is knowing between the lies and hating people of other races.

 

I think my stepdad is xenophobic. He is one of these ones who shares the bullshit all over Facebook about immigrants coming here to takeover. His view is because he has spent decades surrounded by racists at work, in the social club, reading the Sun, and more recently it being all over his Facebook feed.

I don’t think he hates anyone, he’s just been caught up in all the bullshit and has heard it so much that he believes/fears it to be true.

understsbd the point about your stepdad but xenophobia is hating people of other nationalities. A nationality generally isn’t synonymous with race.

 

You could technically be one and not the other (you hate Germans but don’t see Asian people as superior to Caucasians) frequently the 2 are codependent as both are based on applying (negative) characteristics to large groups of people  you haven’t all met. 
 

The Sun and Mail have a lot to answer for in putting a faux enemy in the sights of many disenfranchised groups in left behind areas in the UK. A race to the bottom and pitting poor against poor. 

[TheBrownBottle]

On 02/07/2023 at 00:11, TRon said:

 

That's fair enough, I was there too when we were in the old second division. But then it was a level playing ground, most of the players in the football league were from the British Isles, even the black ones who had bananas chucked at them.

 

Now we have all the world's big money players, whether investment funds, dodgy oligarchs or foreign states ploughing their money into our league. I just want to be on that level playing field. It's pointless being Little Newcastle local born and bred, when every other team is hoovering up the best players using foreign money.

Yeah, I completely agree - it’s why I have a resigned feeling about the ownership more than owt else.  As the game stands, we need this type of ownership to compete with others who’ve had huge investment.  NUFC could compete on a level playing field, of course - but if it isn’t there, then we need the football ownership equivalent of steroids 

[St. Maximin]

Ultimately people pick and choose how much they want to associate the country’s human rights record and morality of its dictator to its investing and growing involvement in our economy and culture. There’s no objectively right moral position here and I don’t really care what varying positions our fans might take here.
 

I personally think while we can still argue about the government selling arms or other clubs having evil owners too, I don’t feel fully satisfied with those justifications. I’m more happy to just say we aren’t celebrating a dictator here - the Saudi state is massive rather than just MBS and his murdering cronies, it is doing what it can do develop economically and if reputation comes into it then it has every right to. Every company or country that has bad press wants to improve its reputation and it’s not like everything or person to do with them are evil and should be made to suffer etc. 

 

The fans who decide to become KSA apologists are of course idiots, but they make up a small proportion of our fanbase and also despite being idiots I think many are probably smart enough to realise there’s a moral dilemma here. It’s just their way of justifying it to themselves. 
 

Where I do feel uncomfortable is when I try and be empathetic and think this can’t be nice to see if you’re a victim of the state’s brutal acts, like Khashoggi’s family or those locked up unfairly. Is it wrong to concern ourselves with what they think seeing Saudi influence being celebrated? Or when I’m considering other scenarios, like if Russia bought the club instead - aside from the obvious practicalities, would that actually be any less defendable?

 

 

Edited July 2, 2023 by St. Maximin

[Mountain]

On 01/07/2023 at 11:04, christ said:

I don’t think what Kaka has said is that bizarre. When the response to overt, vicious racism both in a footballing context and a societal context is consistently appalling then eventually the only conclusion you can draw is that unconsciously it’s basically endemic.
 

I naturally disagree with the suggestion that every individual England fan is on some level racist, but deep down I know the truth is that a lot of the gestures towards inclusivity are pretty surface level and prejudice still exists in spades. Beyond the 22 players on the pitch football is still overwhelmingly white.

 

Would you complain about the Japanese football system having a majority Japanese control, staff, managers etc?

 

Or the Indian football system having a majority Indian control, staff, managers etc?

 

 

[TheBrownBottle]

9 minutes ago, Mountain said:

 

Would you complain about the Japanese football system having a majority Japanese control, staff, managers etc?

 

Or the Indian football system having a majority Indian control, staff, managers etc?

 

 

I think it’s more that it is clear that while a huge % of players are black, a tiny proportion of them end up getting jobs in coaching or management.  And that the crowds at football don’t reflect the make up of the local population.

 

Most black footballers playing in England are English, but there is clearly a problem as very few end up in management or in high position within football administration 

[Mountain]

24 minutes ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I think it’s more that it is clear that while a huge % of players are black, a tiny proportion of them end up getting jobs in coaching or management.  And that the crowds at football don’t reflect the make up of the local population.

 

Most black footballers playing in England are English, but there is clearly a problem as very few end up in management or in high position within football administration 

 

I don't disagree with your premise.

[Conjo]

4 hours ago, OCOCOL said:

understsbd the point about your stepdad but xenophobia is hating people of other nationalities. A nationality generally isn’t synonymous with race.

 

Maybe the word means something a bit different in English, but I though xenophobia meant fear, not hate?