The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[TheBrownBottle]

48 minutes ago, mondonewc said:

Your response doesn't really seem at all appropriate to what I wrote as I didn't state at any point that it shouldn't be criticised? Nor did the person I was quoting. You've also made up a quote that I didn't write or even imply which seems odd when directly replying to my post so not sure if you misread my message, misquoted it or just went off on a tangent? 

The second part isn’t a response to you - only the first bit. 

[toontownman]

Thought I'd come in check out this thread and see what was happening..

[80]

I've only skim read the past few pages in reverse order so happy to be told I'm wrong/misinterpreting anything.

 

But we can't really be surprised that a black man thinks visceral racism is entrenched in the country and segregation is inevitable when this forum spends half it's time calling the country a racist country full of racists who vote for a racist fascist government run by a corrupt political party whose main electoral appeal is its dogwhistling to not-so-crypto fascist racists. If you think a black man isn't going to be negatively affected by that kind of talk, you may be suffering from 'white privilege'.

 

I think Kaka is very wrong about things like the standard English attitude to black England players. But when every day is portrayed as a firefight against racism for players like Saka, what is he to think?

 

That's why, referring back to a brief conversation we had about Joelinton and the Arsenal racism the other day, I think it's very important to be forensic about who has said what, when and why, and to be careful with our language about it. It's because racism is a very serious subject, and making glib, point-scoring declarations about it can do far more harm than good in ways we haven't begun to imagine.

[Peppe]

8 hours ago, LionOfGosforth said:

Loved a bit of Tijani Babangida myself, always had a thing for direct pacy wingers in the Overmars mould

 

Jay Jay Okocha  

[Heron]

4 hours ago, toontownman said:

Thought I'd come in check out this thread and see what was happening..

This was me last night too

[Coffee_Johnny]

8 hours ago, Mills and Boon said:

First time I've been in this thread. Saw one of the wildest takes on the internet. Is that par for the course or just some Friday night hijinks?

Closed season. Standard.

[simonsays]

Here i was thinking that nothing would be more unhinged than the transfer rumours thread...

[mondonewc]

7 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

The second part isn’t a response to you - only the first bit. 

Ok, but then as I said in my follow up message at no point did I suggest it shouldn't be criticised so no idea where you're coming from with that? You implied I lack empathy for other human beings which seems a bit out of line given I didn't state anything of the sort. 

[Collage]

11 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

It really should. I just don't think you have the same kind of affinity for black players historically.

 

Completely different thing from you having a problem with every black person you see.

 

Yeah, it’s not like Tino Asprilla and Les Ferdinand are club legends or anything

[KaKa]

Yeah, must have missed all the Tino Asprilla caps for England.

[Hovagod]

Leaving aside the Newcastle angle (where I don’t think it applies), and the rather explosive manner in which it was first presented, it is quite an interesting point Kaka is raising. 

[Kid Icarus]

That we all secretly don't want black players playing for England but we're just not being honest about it.

 

Interesting is a word you could use, aye.

[buzza]

Some nuanced writing over the last couple of pages with many suppositions and little statistical backing.

Would rather you all talked it through together (Saudi Embassy?) in a nice relaxed ambience…

[KaKa]

Unfortunately, when all that unsavoury behaviour kicks off around black players, I really think you guys underestimate the negative impact that stuff has, and you can't imagine the kind of discussions that it sparks within the communities those players come from. If you think what I've said yesterday is extreme ... then you really can't even begin to imagine I promise you.

[buzza]

13 hours ago, KaKa said:

 

Yeah, I think it's probably for the best for English football as I think most of you feel this way. It's part of the reason I don't think black players should play for England because I think deep down you guys don't really want it, but just aren't being honest about that.

This is a crazy statement Kaka.

If you have ever studied politics or sociology you will know that the two extremes of the bell curve are where you will find “radicals” who are capable of triggering interest (media) and blowing things out of proportion.

I also find it flabbergasting that people would not want their best players in their team because of the colour of their skin, it makes no sense. 
We all at times want ASM out of the team for his lack of defensive work and huffs, but I have never ever heard anyone criticise his involvement because of his colour.

As for england; I stopped going to England games over twenty years ago because it seemed to me that they attracted the scum of the earth(bell-ends again!)  worst support I have seen in my life! Would never go back.

If you were using only the people who attend england games as your base statistic, then I could possibly see where you are coming from…

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, buzza said:

This is a crazy statement Kaka.

If you have ever studied politics or sociology you will know that the two extremes of the bell curve are where you will find “radicals” who are capable of triggering interest (media) and blowing things out of proportion.

I also find it flabbergasting that people would not want their best players in their team because of the colour of their skin, it makes no sense. 
We all at times want ASM out of the team for his lack of defensive work and huffs, but I have never ever heard anyone criticise his involvement because of his colour.

As for england; I stopped going to England games over twenty years ago because it seemed to me that they attracted the scum of the earth(bell-ends again!)  worst support I have seen in my life! Would never go back.

If you were using only the people who attend england games as your base statistic, then I could possibly see where you are coming from…

 

buzza ... there was a full conversation that went on about this where I had to clear up a misunderstanding with the guy that originally quoted my post, and so you'll have to read through that.

 

Ultimately though, my comment on not wanting black players in the team was in reference to the national setup, and even in your post, you've kind of touched upon what I was referring to in regards to England supporters, because I too have been around that kind of England support, and so I know exactly what I was referring to, when I made that statement.

[Jaqen]

I mean it is extreme that you don't think black players should represent England because we secretly don't want it. 

 

I honestly think Saka and Bellingham are probably the two most loved England players in the current squad. 

 

 

[buzza]

Ok cool.

But they are a very small minority and do not represent the huge majority of us…

[christ]

I don’t think what Kaka has said is that bizarre. When the response to overt, vicious racism both in a footballing context and a societal context is consistently appalling then eventually the only conclusion you can draw is that unconsciously it’s basically endemic.
 

I naturally disagree with the suggestion that every individual England fan is on some level racist, but deep down I know the truth is that a lot of the gestures towards inclusivity are pretty surface level and prejudice still exists in spades. Beyond the 22 players on the pitch football is still overwhelmingly white.

[KaKa]

1 minute ago, Jaqen said:

I mean it is extreme that you don't think black players should represent England because we secretly don't want it. 

 

I honestly think Saka and Bellingham are probably the two most loved England players in the current squad. 

 

 

 

The problem is when this stuff continues to happen, this is unfortunately how it ultimately gets received. I know it's uncomfortable for you guys to hear this, but I'm just being honest with you.

[KaKa]

3 minutes ago, buzza said:

Ok cool.

But they are a very small minority and do not represent the huge majority of us…

 

Yes, I understand that this is likely the case.

 

Unfortunately though, over the years the demoralisation from this stuff just builds up, and you just end up at the point where you'd rather just not see these guys have to deal with it anymore, and you'd rather not have to put up with these kind of reports either.

[huss9]

29 minutes ago, Jaqen said:

I mean it is extreme that you don't think black players should represent England because we secretly don't want it. 

 

I honestly think Saka and Bellingham are probably the two most loved England players in the current squad. 

 

 

thats when things are going well....

wait till they miss a pel.

[TRon]

18 hours ago, TheBrownBottle said:

I’m ok with that, tbf.  I don’t follow Newcastle because of the players who play - it’s because I’m from Newcastle.  I was there watching football in the old second division which was unimaginably poor compared to what you’ll see today. Football is tribal; it isn’t about quality. 

 

That's fair enough, I was there too when we were in the old second division. But then it was a level playing ground, most of the players in the football league were from the British Isles, even the black ones who had bananas chucked at them.

 

Now we have all the world's big money players, whether investment funds, dodgy oligarchs or foreign states ploughing their money into our league. I just want to be on that level playing field. It's pointless being Little Newcastle local born and bred, when every other team is hoovering up the best players using foreign money.

[geordiesteve710]

16 hours ago, gazza ladra said:

Ok. My context is the US. I heard too many people -- white people (especially of my parents) generation manifest this contraction.

 

When they deny that the are a racist, they are denying that thay ideological racists. They are not racists by conviction. So in that sense, they are not racists.

 

But they are racists in their attitudes and language and many other ways  -- but they haven't had to think about racism because it has never had any effect in them. They completely unaware if their own racism. And the don't want or can't be bothered to think about it. (not joining the klan is enough for them to absolve themselves )

 

There's clearly some nuance that I'm not picking up on in this matter.

 

For a UK context I'm old enough to remember when there were (a very small minority of) England fans that didn't count goals scored by John Barnes for example. So they would say, for example, the result was a 2-1 defeat when we had drawn 2-2. Whilst an extreme example, this is the kind of attitude that I understand Kaka is referring to. We didn't say that there was some subtlety to what they were saying, we just called them fucking racists because that's what they were.

[The College Dropout]

I think that line is overstating the point @KaKa