The "delighted Ashley has gone, but uncomfortable with Saudi ownership" thread

[madras]

3 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I think people protesting against Saudi Arabia are pretty difficult to disagree with TBH

While I get that what's the end point ? Should we cut off ties ? We'd also need to do it with most of the Middle East and China. Could our economy handle that ? 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

7 minutes ago, madras said:

While I get that what's the end point ? Should we cut off ties ? We'd also need to do it with most of the Middle East and China. Could our economy handle that ? 

 

All very good and difficult questions. Foreign affairs involves loads of immoral and murky decisions that benefit your own citizens only. 

 

Very difficult to answer, hard to identify any government that isn't doing a lot of things I find horrific. 

 

We should stop selling them weapons, I'm pretty clear on that. But beyond that it's quite complex, especially for individual consumers (and football fans). 

[Wallsendmag]

I won't pretend to know much about the goings on in Saudi Arabia but I think what they've done over here is fantastic regarding having a woman as the face of the football club, and also what they've done for womens sport in the area with the NUFC womens football team and how they've promoted them from a team playing in front of 100 fans to a regular crowd of 2,000+ and a SJP crowd of 22,000 with an even bigger crowd expected to watch them later this month.

 

[Yorkie]

Said it in the other thread but I think TL came across like an idiot tbh. "I challenge" these fans. Eh? Why challenge them at all? Investigate and find out what the craic is sure, but there's absolutely no need to paint them in a negative way. At best it's missing the point, at worst it's just falling into the trap of batting for the Saudis. Meanwhile it provokes the braindead morons in the comments into calling them Mackems or just out for fame, etc. Gotta fuel that toxicity for the engagement though, I suppose. 

 

There's a further video with the main organiser who, tbh, is a much worse speaker than the younger fella in that first vid above. 

[Ronaldo]

30 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

I think people protesting against Saudi Arabia are pretty difficult to disagree with TBH

 

Not really. They're twats. 

 

The culture over there is premised wholly on their religion. Isolating them from the rest of the work or holding up signs will change fuck all. All we can do is maintain a relationship and encourage them to continue evolving.

 

Of course that's before you even consider the disconnect between us a footballing entity and issues in a society 4000 miles away. Our owners have, up until now, done exactly what they said they would and then some, while showing the upmost respect for the club and the fans. Anyone protesting against them can fuck right off. 

[Smal]

They’re not protesting how they’re running the football club. They’re protesting a murderous despotic regime.

 

Saying the culture is premised wholly on religion is a bit problematic as well to be honest. There’s nowt in their religion that says they should go round chopping up journalists into tiny pieces or committing war crimes/bombing children. When you start telling people who are protesting that kind of thing to “fuck right off”… do I need to explain why that’s quite an unpleasant thing to do.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Smal

[Lazarus]

4 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

 

Not really. They're twats. 

 

The culture over there is premised wholly on their religion. Isolating them from the rest of the work or holding up signs will change fuck all. All we can do is maintain a relationship and encourage them to continue evolving.

 

Of course that's before you even consider the disconnect between us a footballing entity and issues in a society 4000 miles away. Our owners have, up until now, done exactly what they said they would and then some, while showing the upmost respect for the club and the fans. Anyone protesting against them can fuck right off. 

 

Playing devils advocate a bit here but....theyve already embraced western capitalism and are using its influence on the world stage. How much 'evolving' is left there for them to do?

 

And yes - the religion dominates all aspects of life over there so unless they can separate church and state, they wont really change.

[sixx]

After a years reflection it still doesn't sit well with me and I think I'm not enjoying this period of success as much as I would in other circumstances although I do really enjoy it. Of course I'd love for the takeover to have been initatied by supporters and the club to be owned in majority by supporters like in Germany but at the end of the day this isn't really a matter that we as supporters have much of a say in. We wanted Ashley out for a better part of a decade to no avail. Man Utd fans have wanted the Glazers out for years - not happening. Football opened the floodgates to unfettered capitalism decades ago and it was always bound to result in things like this. Saudi Arabia is undoubtedly an awful state and I can fully understand not wanting relations to it. For that we do have democracy though and last time I checked the UK has both diplomatic and bilateral trade relations with Saudi Arabia - along with pretty much with the rest of the Western world. If people have a problem with that (which is wholly understandable) they have ample democratic means. Holding football clubs to a higher moral standard than your own government is honestly both moronic and a testament to a wider democratic deficit. 

 

And then there is this concept of 'sportswashing'. This concept that's constantly bandied about in terms of takeovers and hosting national tournaments and whatnot. I'm not really buying it. Have the takeovers of City and PSG really improved the public perception of Qatar and the UAE? Has the Newcastle takeover improved western perception towards Saudi Arabia? Has Qatar's hosting of the World Cup really improved its image? Or Russia's last WC? It's doubtful at best and probably it has done more to damage and expose them as awful tyrannies. As is the case with all geopolitics it's confusing and includes mostly gray areas.

[The Prophet]

15 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

 

Not really. They're twats. 

 

The culture over there is premised wholly on their religion. Isolating them from the rest of the work or holding up signs will change fuck all. All we can do is maintain a relationship and encourage them to continue evolving.

 

Of course that's before you even consider the disconnect between us a footballing entity and issues in a society 4000 miles away. Our owners have, up until now, done exactly what they said they would and then some, while showing the upmost respect for the club and the fans. Anyone protesting against them can fuck right off. 

 

"I don't like their opinion so they can fuck off" isn't the most constructive response like. Like it or not, some fans are uncomfortable with the ownership and they have every right to make their views heard.

[Ronaldo]

I'm not saying they should be silenced  and yes they can say what they like. I just wish they'd say it somewhere else - they're clearly not NUFC fans in any sense, and I've zero sympathy if someone has a pop back. 

[Yorkie]

4 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

I'm not saying they should be silenced  and yes they can say what they like. I just wish they'd say it somewhere else - they're clearly not NUFC fans in any sense, and I've zero sympathy if someone has a pop back. 

 

How'd you come to that conclusion? 

[Kid Icarus]

You can fuck right off, to use your phrasing, gatekeeping who is and isn't a proper Newcastle supporter based on whether they have a problem with the Saudi ownership or not.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[Stifler]

Aye, hate it when people do that. I’m a fan of the club, and I’m able to separate my personal issues in regards to human rights from our ownership. Some people can’t and that’s up to them, it doesn’t make them any less of a fan. It’s a bit like those 16 year old kids who have a season ticket who are kicking off at those who used too. I’ve probably been to more games than they have, highly likely put far more of my own money into the club etc, but because I walked away from putting money into the club when Ashley owned us, it makes me less of a fan?

Nah, we both have equal rights to refer to ourselves as a fan.

[Ronaldo]

25 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

 

How'd you come to that conclusion? 

 

Primarily because they think the majority are with them. Their awareness of the club is null. 

 

If you've got a problem with Saudis there's an embassy in London. Or make a song and dance outside Parliament. The club has fuck all to do with Saudia Arabian society.

[Yorkie]

12 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

 

Primarily because they think the majority are with them. Their awareness of the club is null. 

 

If you've got a problem with Saudis there's an embassy in London. Or make a song and dance outside Parliament. The club has fuck all to do with Saudia Arabian society.

 

And how'd you come to that conclusion?

 

I massively respect them, tbh, as I would any Newcastle fan who cares deeply enough to stand there knowing they'll be criticised and probably abused by fellow fans.

 

As usual, though, some people will react to the demonstration as a personal attack; the same emotions being triggered as, for instance, when a pundit says we're a shit team or when an opposing fan says we're a small club. Hence the accusations of Mackems etc. 

 

That being said, having watched both TL's videos, the group themselves seem a bit muddled in terms of their modus operandi. The first guy asppeared to be looking at it all through a NUFC lens and specifically bemoaning the club's association with the regime; whereas the main organiser seemed a lot more politically motivated and - I dare say - exploiting the very public nature of their involvement with Newcastle to push his (nonetheless valid) views. For instance he was suggesting Wor Flags should do an anti-Saudi demonstration. I mean, howeh. 

[St. Maximin]

Ultimately I support Newcastle and feel no allegiance to the Saudi state. While there will always be some discomfort at this takeover, a proportionate reaction is needed. We are 80% owned by the investment fund of the government, which invests in businesses all over the world and often far bigger amounts. The people we are aware are mostly involved in the club seem like decent and likeable people, who are committed to the club's development and that includes significant developments to the women's team, while also wanting to engage with the fans and benefit the region. This may include PIF employees, who are ultimately human beings also and do not necessarily share their moral compasses of the most powerful in the country (as with governments across the world). We have and will no doubt continue to benefit from the PIF's money, but it's still a club ran by great people with positive ideas for the club and fans rather than us simply becoming a soulless business growing due to 'blood money' (not sure how people come to that conclusion anyway). As for the Saudi connection, we're hardly advertising their values, human rights etc. If anything it's more likely to make people visit the country and have a positive experience in the same way people do to other gulf states with bad reputations for human rights. It's also pretty subtle relative to how it could be - bit different to having Sports Direct everywhere you look in the stadium.

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by St. Maximin

[Groundhog63]

1 hour ago, Yorkie said:

 

How'd you come to that conclusion? 

Because he's thick as whale spunk 

[TheBrownBottle]

Sitting on massive reserves of oil and gas has meant that society in KSA has had no need to evolve.  It’s still an atavistic form of govt which retards progress, built upon a vicious brand of conservative religious values and completely at odds with what most would consider reasonable.  It is for good reason that every time some fucker commits a religiously-inspired atrocity in the name of Islam, said fucker will have been ultimately funded or influenced by the Wahhabist Salafist lunatic strain of the religion which KSA has birthed and has poured money into spreading.

 

Note that the elites in KSA don’t feel any compunction to follow the rules that they set.  They’ve been living it large for years, with their billion-dollar yachts with gold-plated bogs.  A mate of mine who worked in KSA - and drank in the embassies over there - noted that the elites didn’t exactly follow the laws that the hoi polloi had to suffer, under the literal threat of the lash for imbibing a drop of alcohol. 

 

Any notion that there will be a cultural cross-pollination via NUFC is laughable.  The entire purpose of ME despots buying sports clubs is the soft power that they offer.  It’s got nothing to do with profits, and nothing to do with ‘sportswashing’.

 

The only thing that will free the people of KSA will be the people of KSA overthrowing a vicious dictatorship.

 

No-one should feel any guilt whatsoever for enjoying watching their football club - but anyone who wants to raise concerns re KSA has my support.  

[WilliamPS]

I’ve sympathy for (and share) the view that the club and PIF are separate and people can hold that distinction so support one and not the other.

 

Zero sympathy with the nonsense that because “it’s Saudi culture” the Saudis can’t be criticised for their abysmal human rights approach. Not sure the people being bombed / executed see it as their culture. The regime oppresses the citizens to stay in power - that’s how dictatorships work. 

[TRon]

1 hour ago, Yorkie said:

 

 For instance he was suggesting Wor Flags should do an anti-Saudi demonstration. I mean, howeh. 

 

WTF?

 

Did it not dwell on him that the people behind Wor Flags are massive Newcastle fans and probably love how things have turned out?

 

 

[Ronaldo]

1 hour ago, Groundhog63 said:

Because he's thick as whale spunk 

 

Or because I can read. 

 

“I think the vast majority of fans are against what the owners are doing."

 

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-fans-protest-saudi-arabia-execution-young-people-chelsea-1940661

 

Honestly, these fucking clowns are an embarrassment. Our owners have transformed the club in the past year and hopefully are fully aware of how appreciative the fanbase is. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

1 hour ago, St. Maximin said:

Ultimately I support Newcastle and feel no allegiance to the Saudi state. While there will always be some discomfort at this takeover, a proportionate reaction is needed. We are 80% owned by the investment fund of the government, which invests in businesses all over the world and often far bigger amounts. The people we are aware are mostly involved in the club seem like decent and likeable people, who are committed to the club's development and that includes significant developments to the women's team, while also wanting to engage with the fans and benefit the region. This may include PIF employees, who are ultimately human beings also and do not necessarily share their moral compasses of the most powerful in the country (as with governments across the world). We have and will no doubt continue to benefit from the PIF's money, but it's still a club ran by great people with positive ideas for the club and fans rather than us simply becoming a soulless business growing due to 'blood money' (not sure how people come to that conclusion anyway). As for the Saudi connection, we're hardly advertising their values, human rights etc. If anything it's more likely to make people visit the country and have a positive experience in the same way people do to other gulf states with bad reputations for human rights. It's also pretty subtle relative to how it could be - bit different to having Sports Direct everywhere you look in the stadium.

 

This is basically my feeling. I would rather the money came from somewhere 100% wholesome, but I don't have control of that. 

 

I also feel that the moral strength expected of footballers and football fans is ridiculous when the people in positions of power are the ones who have allowed/created these situations. Ask people in the Premier League why they allowed money from every dodgy regime in the world to come into the game. Ask the Prime Minister when we are going to stop supplying weapons to be used in Yemen. Any number of questions that are more pertinent than asking a football fan to stop supporting their club. 

 

As always though, it doesn't mean we should support the regime of KSA or make excuses for them. 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2022 by AyeDubbleYoo

[Wallsendmag]

Ultimately we have to take the takeover at face value. PIF had to legally prove separation from the State before the Premier League could rubber stamp the takeover.

 

I still don't see what the fuss is about.

[Yorkie]

8 minutes ago, Ronaldo said:

 

Or because I can read. 

 

“I think the vast majority of fans are against what the owners are doing."

 

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/newcastle-fans-protest-saudi-arabia-execution-young-people-chelsea-1940661

 

Honestly, these fucking clowns are an embarrassment. Our owners have transformed the club in the past year and hopefully are fully aware of how appreciative the fanbase is. 

 

It's a bit vague. He could be (and probably is, imo) referring to what they are doing in terms of human rights abuses etc. I don't think he means the vast majority of fans are against long overdue investment and respect towards the football club. 

 

I don't feel strong enough about it to stand and protest with them, which is why I didn't, and didn't even particularly look into it, but what I think is totally wrong is calling them embarrassing or not Newcastle fans. 

[The Prophet]

2 minutes ago, Wallsendmag said:

Ultimately we have to take the takeover at face value. PIF had to legally prove separation from the State before the Premier League could rubber stamp the takeover.

 

I still don't see what the fuss is about.

 

Was the standard to a legal requirement? Or just to satisfy the PL Owners and Directors test?