Heron Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 10 minutes ago, Dr.Spaceman said: More rotation - Hall, Ritchie & Tino earlier in the season A plan of attack other than the right wing overlap Attempt something different when teams aren't pressing the shit out of us. Be more direct, shoot more often, I dunno, I'm not a football manager but doing the same thing over and over can't be the answer. A lot of frustration comes from seemingly only having a plan A. You can't do that in the PL, losing at home to Forest, away to Bournemouth and Luton and expect absolutely zero critique. FWIW I want him to be given time to sort it out. At which point would you have rotated those players and who for? I for one think we need a 'Plan B' which is essentially a 'control'style of play but without an array of technically able players that's difficult to apply, especially if it becomes apparent mid-season that you need to owing to an overwhelming amount of injuries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 This season the minimum target would have been European football, that would have been without what we did last season or not. The club and owners have a 5 year plan, this would have been where the club needed to be this year. If we had won a cup then you maybe forgiven for not achieving it. Right now we are below that target and in the backpeddle in the fight for the European slots. If we lose on Saturday then bang goes any half chance of a cup victory, and another route to Europe. We also lose a game against our rivals who when we were taken over, were 2 divisions apart from. It was alright losing that game for Ashley, this ownership group will not accept it. There is no leeway for Howe in losing the derby if we are not achieving what we need too elsewhere. For us now, that’s European football, under Ashley that was 17th, hence why losing the derby was no big deal for Pardew, Carver, and McClaren. As others have said, we are not going through just a bad spell. We have only won 1 away league game all season. We have lost 2 recent games to relegation candidates, and face a month playing against teams going for the title. Out it down to injuries/fatigue all you like, but our performances have been way off, even in games that we have won. Also when you are manager and come out in press conferences and say playing so many games isn’t an excuse, then all you are doing is taking that off the table, be it you agree with him or not. I still think injuries are a big factor in our situation, but the press and possibly the ownership group are not going to take what Howe says and allow him the leeway he’s talking himself out of. At the end of the day, if we lose on Saturday then our season is effectively over in the first week of January, and I don’t see that sitting well with the owners, and with fans. No one is expecting a top 4 finish, but I think everyone is expecting to finish in the European places. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 3 minutes ago, Ronaldo said: We’re so bad under pressure on the ball. Shockingly so, in fact. We’re the epitome of the British flat track bully away from home. In fairness to Howe you can only do so much to make Sean Longstaff a technically efficient player in tight spaces - that ship sailed a while ago. I felt bad for Miley tonight. He was a deer in headlights from the first whistle on and off the ball. But who can blame him, he’s 17. Same with the counterattacking issue. Look at the quality of Liverpool’s compared to ours. Unlike us they have 2 ways to win a game. But they’ve got players in midfield and out wide who make the right decisions and execute consistently. I felt more shocked by Bruno tbh. He was constantly giving the ball away to players who were quicker, he was left for dead by Sbozlai for one of the goals. I don't have such high expectations of Miley or Longstaff, but Bruno looked really bad tonight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 1 minute ago, Stifler said: This season the minimum target would have been European football, that would have been without what we did last season or not. The club and owners have a 5 year plan, this would have been where the club needed to be this year. If we had won a cup then you maybe forgiven for not achieving it. Right now we are below that target and in the backpeddle in the fight for the European slots. If we lose on Saturday then bang goes any half chance of a cup victory, and another route to Europe. We also lose a game against our rivals who when we were taken over, were 2 divisions apart from. It was alright losing that game for Ashley, this ownership group will not accept it. There is no leeway for Howe in losing the derby if we are not achieving what we need too elsewhere. For us now, that’s European football, under Ashley that was 17th, hence why losing the derby was no big deal for Pardew, Carver, and McClaren. As others have said, we are not going through just a bad spell. We have only won 1 away league game all season. We have lost 2 recent games to relegation candidates, and face a month playing against teams going for the title. Out it down to injuries/fatigue all you like, but our performances have been way off, even in games that we have won. Also when you are manager and come out in press conferences and say playing so many games isn’t an excuse, then all you are doing is taking that off the table, be it you agree with him or not. I still think injuries are a big factor in our situation, but the press and possibly the ownership group are not going to take what Howe says and allow him the leeway he’s talking himself out of. At the end of the day, if we lose on Saturday then our season is effectively over in the first week of January, and I don’t see that sitting well with the owners, and with fans. No one is expecting a top 4 finish, but I think everyone is expecting to finish in the European places. You've said the target is a European spot so how on earth is the season over if we lose on Saturday? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 19 minutes ago, ponsaelius said: Howe has been unlucky with injuries and suspensions, there is no doubt. We banked in the summer on adding depth at fullback, making sure we had four hard working wingers who we could run into the ground, and a midfielder who could cover both #8 as well as Bruno's role (in theory). Clearly the idea was to maximise the resources, facilitated in part by actually selling our one wild card, to double down on our style of play and make sure we had the depth to push it across multiple competitions. Ultimately we have tried to reinforce what worked last year - rather than look to enhance/augment what we've got and give us something different to win games. Whether that was signing a number 10/wide attacker who can play between the lines, a designated defensive midfielder to give us more control in transition, another striker who could offer more out of possession than Wilson etc etc - these were options that were available to us and we chose not to go for. I think it's not unreasonable to say at this point that it has backfired. This is partly through sheer bad luck in the case of Tonali and Barnes in particular. But our inability to change it up or find other ways to win games has made this season's crash far worse and also I'm afraid made Howe look increasingly naive. We've ran players into the ground and made injuries worse, which has increasingly made our fundsmental style of play ineffective, which has now increasingly made players devoid of confidence. Confidence that has been rattled further by crashing out of the cups and leaving the season effectively over by January. It is a vicious spiral and I think, mitigating factors accepted, Howe has to take blame and be questioned for it. Both for his input in transfer decisions (we know he will have had some) and how we have adapted this season to very different circumstances. Great post. Don't entirely agree with it all but think it's very well put across and reasonable to suggest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
OverThere Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 The midfield is the main problem. Giving the ball away in advanced positions and then lack of recovery. Either we have to go more conservative in the 4-3-3 or change to a 4-2-3-1 or 5-3-2. Something has to give, he can't just ignore what's happening. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Spaceman Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 1 minute ago, Heron said: At which point would you have rotated those players and who for? I for one think we need a 'Plan B' which is essentially a 'control'style of play but without an array of technically able players that's difficult to apply, especially if it becomes apparent mid-season that you need to owing to an overwhelming amount of injuries. I wouldn't have played Trippier Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday etc Same with Gordon, who basically had no pre-season. Guy needed a rest at the start of December and here he is playing another 97 minutes in probably the highest intensity position on the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 6 minutes ago, TRon said: I felt more shocked by Bruno tbh. He was constantly giving the ball away to players who were quicker, he was left for dead by Sbozlai for one of the goals. I don't have such high expectations of Miley or Longstaff, but Bruno looked really bad tonight. He’s knackered. Pretty much played 11 games in 35 days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brummie Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 35 minutes ago, LiquidAK said: The not training has only been in December. Villa are playing part-timers and not Mbappe. Howe's "decisions" have been limited due to the freak injuries, which have meant he can't rotate. Can see the argument to just go with the young players anyway, he obviously has his reasons for not doing that, but can see your point. Take your point re the opposition, but they're still tough matches which involve a lot of travelling and too many games in not enough time. Anyway, that's not the point i was going to make. Point was - we did rotate quite a lot in Europe, and also in the Carabou Cup - and trust me, even with more squad depth, it's not as easy as just swapping a load of lads out and sticking others in. We lost at Legia Warsaw, pushed it a bit closer than I'd like in other European ties, and also got knocked out of the Carabou Cup by Everton (before they'd hit any form Everton, not the improved version). It's really fucking difficult to rotate and maintain shape and form, even if you do have the bodies to do it, so if you're undergoing an injury crisis, it'll be much worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) these are *extremely* bad numbers, like Edited January 1 by Smal Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Dr.Spaceman said: I wouldn't have played Trippier Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday, Tuesday, Saturday etc Same with Gordon, who basically had no pre-season. Guy needed a rest at the start of December and here he is playing another 97 minutes in probably the highest intensity position on the pitch. With Gordon though - do you think he would have had this amount of game time with a fit Harvey Barnes/Willock/Joelinton who've all operated in similar/same positions? With reference to Trippier I am absolutely inclined to agree. However, his recent blip has made it abundantly clear to me that we are somewhat dependant on his influence alone. When Trippier isn't at it, we aren't at it for results. So that'd be my concern. I don't mean to come across a dick but I just feel it's all easy to say in retrospect and after bad results. I don't think anyone at the time was suggesting we should do the same back then. I could be wrong though... Edited January 1 by Heron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaqen Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 7 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said: You've said the target is a European spot so how on earth is the season over if we lose on Saturday? 2 points off 7th with 18 games left to play = season over. Some braindead stuff being posted in here tonight, like Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 1 minute ago, Heron said: With Gordon though. Do you think he would have had this amount of game time with a fit Harvey Barnes/ Willock/Joelinton who'veall operated in similar/same positions? With reference to Trippier I am absolutely inclined to agree. However, his recent blip has made it abundantly clear to me that we are somewhat dependant on his influence alone. When Trippier isn't at it, we aren't at it for results. So that'd be my concern. If you have injuries - does that mean you do not rotate at all ? You play what you have in the squad to keep your best players sharp. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ronson333 Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 30 minutes ago, TheInfiniteOdyssey said: Howe has to sort out some of our underlying tactical issues mind, primarily in organisation and shape. All season long, I’ve felt our midfield has been so easy to bypass with a simple ball through. Tbh first time it happened was against Villa last year when that Buendia was getting all sorts of space. Feel other teams are just exposing the same weakness and we haven’t plugged the gap yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRC Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 He needs to show something vs the mackems. Get outplayed and I can't forgive that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 3 minutes ago, Smal said: these are *extremely* bad numbers, like Surely that's more evidence of it mainly being down to extreme fatigue than suddenly the league's best defensive unit has turned into the worst with mainly the same players and the same manager in the space of a month? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geordie Ahmed Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 6 minutes ago, Smal said: these are *extremely* bad numbers, like These are all mostly in December, had a quick glance at the games prior and the xG against was nowhere near as bad So, it's either we changed something tactically in a drastic way, the opposition suddenly found us out or the brutal injury crisis has well and truly caught up? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
McDog Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 43 minutes ago, Wandy said: That performance was utter rubbish. There were no redeeming features and nothing to take encouragement from. The manager is doing a really poor job right now. I don't want the manager to be sacked. Not now, not next week & not at any point in this season. Even if we lose again on Saturday in the derby. Does that clarify things for you? How about the reserve keeper's performance after being thrust into the first team midseason? You thought that was shit also? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) 7 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: If you have injuries - does that mean you do not rotate at all ? You play what you have in the squad to keep your best players sharp. I feel you're perhaps referencing a different post to what I quoted as part of the discussion to be honest. Your comments don't really answer what I'm asking. If you have injuries, you're forced to rotate, how often you rotate is probably then reduced owing to perceived levels of quality and the capability of those being rotated in to get the job done. What you're saying above, to me, is a very "good in hindsight" notion. When players are playing 100%, are playing well, and getting results, and you are uncertain of the capability to maintain results with their positional competition then it is natural you're less likely to willingfully rotate. As I said in my previous post, given Trippiers influence it has become apparent why perhaps Tino wasn't rotated in sooner. Not for his playing ability but for his lack of influence over the team. The Gordon one, for me, would have been avoided had Barnes not been injured, which no one could foresee. So this comes across very hypothetical now... Edited January 1 by Heron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 Just now, The College Dropout said: If you have injuries - does that mean you do not rotate at all ? You play what you have in the squad to keep your best players sharp. You rotate until you don't have the players to do so. We did rotate Isak and Wilson, Barnes got injured playing instead of Gordon, Murphy got games before getting injured, with Tonali out we have no replacement for Bruno, Trippier was even benched for Man City and didn't get any pitch time. Gordon and Barnes started to leave out Murphy V Brentford. Some make it sound like we wanted the same 11 out every game and it's not the case. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr.Spaceman Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 7 minutes ago, Heron said: With Gordon though - do you think he would have had this amount of game time with a fit Harvey Barnes/Willock/Joelinton who've all operated in similar/same positions? With reference to Trippier I am absolutely inclined to agree. However, his recent blip has made it abundantly clear to me that we are somewhat dependant on his influence alone. When Trippier isn't at it, we aren't at it for results. So that'd be my concern. I don't mean to come across a dick but I just feel it's all easy to say in retrospect and after bad results. I don't think anyone at the time was suggesting we should do the same back then. I could be wrong though... I just think you've got to accept that you're going to have to play lesser skilled players from time to time in order to keep your better players fresh. How Lewis Hall has played so little is beyond me. Ritchie is there too, people are talking about experience on the pitch, he's up there in that regard. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 Playing Ritchie is an absolute lose/lose for Howe mind. He'd get criticism for doing that and Ritchie would weaken us Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 (edited) 4 minutes ago, Dr.Spaceman said: I just think you've got to accept that you're going to have to play lesser skilled players from time to time in order to keep your better players fresh. How Lewis Hall has played so little is beyond me. Ritchie is there too, people are talking about experience on the pitch, he's up there in that regard. Aye, that's fair re. those two. You could argue why Hall was brought in for example. However, I think we have tried to play with 'lesser able' squads from time to time and to varying degrees we did so vs Man United and Man City in the cup, but it's seemingly being forgotten about. In short, I think we absolutely would have been rotating more if we had viable options. Edited January 1 by Heron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRC Posted January 1 Share Posted January 1 5 minutes ago, Geordie Ahmed said: These are all mostly in December, had a quick glance at the games prior and the xG against was nowhere near as bad So, it's either we changed something tactically in a drastic way, the opposition suddenly found us out or the brutal injury crisis has well and truly caught up? Being tired is fair enough but you have to adapt and try something different at some point Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mighty__mag Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 (edited) 15 hours ago, Stifler said: No one is expecting a top 4 finish, but I think everyone is expecting to finish in the European places. You think wrong then. We all have hope and expectations, and before a season even begins that's all done in hindsight. Reality is, factual evidence has now derailed our season, and peoples expectations change, they either understand the circumstances and look at it and accept its going to be a much more challenging expectation, probability or likelihood. You then factor in, Aston Villa, Spurs, and Liverpool who have pushed our numbers down by having very good seasons, then don't disregard both Brighton and West Ham along with ourselves and Man Utd. Realistically, I think given our misfortunes at times this season we could still fight for around 7th I won't be disheartened if we finish from 8th to 10th though. You're sort of right in a way though, if they surveyed 100 fans after the first home game of the season, asking where they felt we might finish, 90 out of that lot would have said hopefully in the European spots, the odd few saying hang on we're only one game into the season, but if you are saying that from now, then I'm standing by what I said at the top. ?? Edited January 2 by mighty__mag Mobile error, sausage fingers, predictive text, typing to fast dyslexia, bla,bla Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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