Sven Botman back late December/early January 'at the earliest' (Howe)

[Vinny Green Balls]

Why do a few posters go

off the rails with everything? If you are living in an alternative universe, then my apologies. 

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, McDog said:

 

 

Nobody in their right mind plays a player with a fully ruptured ACL. 

It seems different doctors said different things.  They went with rest to see what it was like.  He started playing again and seemed ok.  

[madras]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Yes. Elite foootball is about performance not about health. When both don’t work out the coach shoulders some responsibility.  
 

Wilson said he rushed back from injury too early this season too. 

Small point but was it Wilson that rushed back too early of Wilson was rushed back too early ? Subtle but important difference.

[Vinny Green Balls]

Sounds like Sven opted for rest 

[Upthemags]

2 minutes ago, McDog said:

 

 

Nobody in their right mind plays a player with a fully ruptured ACL. 

Can't say I understand the sensitivity/loyalty to medical staff, but alas!

[Turnbull2000]

Think we might have to cash in Bruno on that back of this, otherwise the squad is going to get caught short again next season.

[OoOGazOoO]

Absolutely awful news, good luck to the fella with his surgery and rehab, let's hope he comes back 100% next season.

[madras]

1 minute ago, Upthemags said:

Can't say I understand the sensitivity/loyalty to medical staff, but alas!

You'd think the ones who said it was told him to rest which he did.

[McDog]

Just now, Upthemags said:

Can't say I understand the sensitivity/loyalty to medical staff, but alas!

 

No loyalty here on the faceless medical staff. I say again, if after reviewing the scans the medical team allowed him to play and his ACL was all but done then sure they should be fired. That also assumes the entire review process in the club is a giant mess. Botman is a valuable player and I personally highly doubt they would chuck him in knowing that kind of danger from the top. That said, I concede I know fuck all on who did what, just as everyone here I guess.

[Wolfcastle]

Just no point in thinking this season isn't a write off is there. A few weeks will pass and nobody will be injured and Bam! another goes down.

 

Squad and spend limits probably aren't good for player fitness. The ancients knew this well, seemed to work.

 

[bobloblaw]

Two of my friends, one an athletic trainer for a small local college sports department, and the other a US Paralympic weight lifter, have mentioned to me that there's been a lot of rethinking lately about icing injuries.  Maybe the staff is a bit behind the curve?  Obviously I have no clue how they treat injuries, but could be a possibility.

 

EDIT: Also not suggesting anything specific relating to Botman here, just seemed like a good thread to put it in.

 

Some evidence:

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/04/21/well/move/exercise-icing-sore-muscles.html

 

 

 

Edited March 20 by bobloblaw

[Dr Jinx]

You can criticise the medical team but ultimately you have to look further up.. some of these decisions were also made by Dan Ashworth as well so he’s also in the firing line alongside Eddie Howe.

 

The buck stops there really. It has to.

 

Someone made a call to leave the decision of having surgery or not up to the player himself which looks so amateur, a player will always want to play or come back with the least amount of downtime.

 

It’s been a massively frustrating season where I think the manager has come up short. Did he deserve the chance to have a go at it? Yes absolutely he did but how long does that good will last for? How much of a pass should he get?

[magorific]

3 hours ago, Lazarus said:

Does anyone know what the club or other clubs have in the way of ultra modern diagnostic equipment in their medical departments?

 

Or do they have like a basic-ish suite of gear and then refer players to a hospital when they need more advanced stuff?

 

 

 

Told by a very highly regarded physio local to the North East, who presents to health conferences worldwide on the use of cutting-edge injury diagnostic and rehab equipment, that he has offered use and advice re such equipment to rhe club several times. He's even offered to work for free to gather content for his PhD studies. But the response has always been negative - on the basis that the players are "used to" the kit already used by the club, mainly because it's relatively light-duty equipment which makes their injuries feel temporarily better - and "doesn't hurt".

And what the players want, they get...

[r0cafella]

We are cursed

[Nobody]

Of course fucking of course Howe is going to rush players back from injury, play players who are carrying a slight knock and over play some players when hes had 15 players out injured ffs. Howe is a winner, he wants to win every game, so he isn't going to basically throw three games by playing kids that aren't anywhere near ready so he can ease in players who are technically fit to play.

We've seen how cautious he is with new players when given the choice, of course he would have preffered to have to done that with our injured players this season, but that option simply wasn't available to him this season. 

[dcmk]

15 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said:

You can criticise the medical team but ultimately you have to look further up.. some of these decisions were also made by Dan Ashworth as well so he’s also in the firing line alongside Eddie Howe.

 

The buck stops there really. It has to.

 

Someone made a call to leave the decision of having surgery or not up to the player himself which looks so amateur, a player will always want to play or come back with the least amount of downtime.

 

It’s been a massively frustrating season where I think the manager has come up short. Did he deserve the chance to have a go at it? Yes absolutely he did but how long does that good will last for? How much of a pass should he get?

This is a hell of a reach.

[Shadow Puppets]

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight…

 

1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem.

 

2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone.

 

3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play.

 

4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 

 

5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence.

Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything.

 

Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

[Vinny Green Balls]

14 minutes ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight…

 

1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem.

 

2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone.

 

3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play.

 

4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 

 

5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence.

Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything.

 

Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

[GideonShandy]

Should be banned for being too sensible.

[Disco]

1 hour ago, Shadow Puppets said:

Right… just to lay out the facts as I know them (those of you who know me know who my sources are). Had this confirmed tonight…

 

1) his initial injury in the Brentford game appeared minor at the time. There was never an indication, at all, that there was anything seriously wrong until the Sheff Utd game. That is the first time anyone became aware that there may be a deeper problem.

 

2) he saw 3 specialists, one in the UK and two in the Netherlands. ALL of them agreed that a period of rest and rehabilitation should prevent the need for surgery, though one of them was apparently less convinced than the others, but still it was an acceptable course of action to everyone.

 

3) he has had regular scans (I think we’re talking every month, but I might be wrong), to monitor the situation, and every one of them has been fine… no issues with him playing. The last one was 3 weeks ago, just prior to the Wolves game, that showed that he was absolutely fine to play.

 

4) the decision was not “left up to the player”… it has been an ongoing joint decision between the club, the specialists and Sven. Seems like everyone has been on the same page. 

 

5) to reiterate, Sven has physically felt absolutely fine for months. I think, personally, reading between the lines, that he has struggled more mentally with trusting his body, which had led to some mistakes and a bit of a loss of confidence.

Lastly, I’m trying to get confirmation of what exactly the injury is, and whether it’s the same as / a continuation of previous, or whether it’s due to a weakness in the area or something. Will report back if / when I hear anything.

 

Now, I’d really love it if we, as a forum/fanbase, could collectively stop loosing our shit over things we know nothing about. Feels like there’s a real appetite to pin blame on managers / players / staff / owners for everything at the moment (to suit your own agenda) when in many cases there is no blame to pin. Sometimes, people make decisions based on the best available information, and annoyingly sometimes those decisions turn out, in hindsight, to be wrong. It doesn’t mean that someone is shit at their job, needs sacking, or deserves public shaming… sometimes it just means that none of this is a perfect exact science.

When it rains it pours.

[TheBrownBottle]

Howe will have taken on the medical team’s advice.  He doesn’t hold an MD - I find it incredible that if there was any chance he was aware of this that he’d play the lad.  Yes, Botman hasn’t been right since his return - but players coming back from serious injury often don’t look right for a while.  I’ve been critical of Howe rushing players back, but there’s no way he plays the lad if he was aware of this. 

 

I still think some serious questions need to be asked in the summer about our medical team / sports scientists / physios. 

[Erikse]

2 hours ago, Dr Jinx said:

You can criticise the medical team but ultimately you have to look further up.. some of these decisions were also made by Dan Ashworth as well so he’s also in the firing line alongside Eddie Howe.

 

The buck stops there really. It has to.

 

Someone made a call to leave the decision of having surgery or not up to the player himself which looks so amateur, a player will always want to play or come back with the least amount of downtime.

 

It’s been a massively frustrating season where I think the manager has come up short. Did he deserve the chance to have a go at it? Yes absolutely he did but how long does that good will last for? How much of a pass should he get?

 

I've seen this said from other managers aswell lately (Hodgson with Olise for example), and I find it really strange. "Oh he wanted to play himself but 10 minutes later he got a reoccurence, oops".

 

Is the player supposed to say "I don't want to play"? Most players will be very eager to come back even when they are not ready. But also, even if they are in doubt, they might feel like they have to show willingness to contribute. When the injury comes back, they get the blame for the decision. Great.

 

There's several reasons as to why Man City usually doesn't have many injuries. In a recent interview Guardiola said back in january that de Bruyne obviously wants to start already, but he has to protect him. His time will come.

 

 

Edited March 21 by Erikse

[Sean]

Seemed obvious a while ago the injuries would continue into next season. 

[ToonCanuck]

 wow,crazy injuries this season...smh.

[Zero]

We are going to write off our NEXT season very soon