Sven Botman

[High Five o]

2 hours ago, Keegans Export said:

Replace "player" with "patient". From a medical perspective there is no difference. 

 

And you can't coerce/threaten the patient to do what you want either. Bench him, yes fair enough, if you believe it's in his best interests, but you can't sack him.

I don’t care from a medical perspective, all know a doctor cannot force you to do surgery. But from an employee perspective I believe a PL club have something in the contract that states that a player can not refuse treatment for an injury that is treatable….

 

[LFEE]

5 hours ago, joeyt said:

Wonder if the Euros would have played a part in Botman's thinking?

 

If he got the surgery in September he would have close to no chance of making the Euros

Totally. Was surely his thinking when he decided to nurse it. 

[et tu brute]

1 hour ago, Kanji said:

I honestly give up here. 
 

multiple specialists had conflicting views. Club said get the op. He chose another option. He rested and rehabbed. He didn’t play until the club and doctors cleared him to play. This only after many months of rest rehab and scans done locally and with approved medical professionals. 
 

now the club could have still said nah we’re not playing you Sven, even after all these months. But they didn’t, did they? Because the medical team and club all looked at the facts and said he could play. 

And by doing that he is now facing a season out, and the reason for that is that he wasn't told that he would not be selected. Instead he kept on playing when it was plainly obvious that there were issues. Who is ultimately to blame is subject to the club. 

[et tu brute]

12 minutes ago, LFEE said:

Totally. Was surely his thinking when he decided to nurse it. 

I think it's an absolute certainty that is the reason he wanted to continue to play.

[gjohnson]

4 hours ago, Abacus said:

Sadly, or happily, I've been around NUFC for a long time. I've not seen any combination of shit luck like this before.

 

And I say this having still enjoyed an amazing European adventure, two decent cup runs and still  the chance of a crack at some sort of European football next season.

 

This season is one of what ifs, and as they say, it's the hope that kills you.

Never seen anything with as bad luck as this? How about getting  taken over by the tightest billionaire in the world, suffering two relegations due to basic incompetence? We've had far worse seasons, and luck has been a factor this season, but shouldn't gloss over some of the obvious mistakes that have been made on and off the pitch. 

 

Given our so called style, injuries should be realistically expected so will freely admit we were unlucky with Barnes. Tonalis issues should have been picked up so I don't see that as bad luck...either an oversight or incompetence in due diligence. Bringing in no cover for Isak or Wilson and letting Wood go knowing their records is bordering on stupidity

[Abacus]

3 hours ago, gjohnson said:

Never seen anything with as bad luck as this? How about getting  taken over by the tightest billionaire in the world, suffering two relegations due to basic incompetence? We've had far worse seasons, and luck has been a factor this season, but shouldn't gloss over some of the obvious mistakes that have been made on and off the pitch. 

 

Given our so called style, injuries should be realistically expected so will freely admit we were unlucky with Barnes. Tonalis issues should have been picked up so I don't see that as bad luck...either an oversight or incompetence in due diligence. Bringing in no cover for Isak or Wilson and letting Wood go knowing their records is bordering on stupidity

Well, we're going to have to disagree then, in a scholarly manner. 

 

I was mainly just sticking to things on the pitch and ignoring the PSG robbery, but then you have the ridiculous cup draws, the Tonali situation and the freak injuries trying to cope with a squad built by Ashley after years of neglect.

 

If you're talking off the pitch, then the years we couldn't or wouldn't compete is comfortably trumped by realising that the cards are stacked in such a way to stop us, or anyone else from doing so. Maybe saying that's bad luck is describing it wrongly, but we certainly did it at the wrong time.

 

Thing is, we were finally playing like we all wanted and were ready to give it a go (well ahead of time) from where we should have been. Shit luck, as I say.

 

Edit; it's still been a hell of a ride and nowhere near as dispiriting as some of the Ashley years, so I'll definitely give you that.

 

 

Edited March 29 by Abacus
25 pints

[Away Toon]

10 hours ago, joeyt said:

Wonder if the Euros would have played a part in Botman's thinking?

 

If he got the surgery in September he would have close to no chance of making the Euros

Fit or not he’s way down the list to play for the Netherlands. Far too slow for a start.

[madras]

6 hours ago, et tu brute said:

I'm privy to my eyes which saw obvious problems and I heard Howe today state the medical team said he needed surgery. If you want to think something else that's entirely up to you. I stick to my point that it's been a monumental fuck up which will probably see a player miss an entire season.

 

 

 

That's strange because I read Howe saying their was conflicting advice, the club advised him to get surgery but he decided to play on and Howe had seen players do that with that sort of injury before.

 

 

 

But that means we can't blame anyone and we have to have blame !

[et tu brute]

Just now, madras said:

That's strange because I read Howe saying their was conflicting advice, the club advised him to get surgery but he decided to play on and Howe had seen players do that with that sort of injury before.

 

 

 

But that means we can't blame anyone and we have to have blame !

Well they were both wrong then. Howe said the club advised getting surgery, so obviously they considered all the 'conflicting advice'. You're damn right someone(s) is to blame also, but I very much doubt we will ever find out. At the end of the day our best central defender is out for probably a season, because of playing games when he was so clearly not fit and also because he didn't have surgery when advised to do so. I've got no doubt this was due to the player wanting to give his options open for the summer euros. 

[madras]

Just now, et tu brute said:

Well they were both wrong then. Howe said the club advised getting surgery, so obviously they considered all the 'conflicting advice'. You're damn right someone(s) is to blame also, but I very much doubt we will ever find out. At the end of the day our best central defender is out for probably a season, because of playing games when he was so clearly not fit and also because he didn't have surgery when advised to do so. I've got no doubt this was due to the player wanting to give his options open for the summer euros. 

Alternatively Botman thought he could play on after rest, there was some advice to say he could and evidence of others doing it. Why shouldn't he ?

 

Players play with injuries all the time, it's always a risk but teams would rarely fill a bench if putting out 100% fit players.

[et tu brute]

Just now, madras said:

Alternatively Botman thought he could play on after rest, there was some advice to say he could and evidence of others doing it. Why shouldn't he ?

 

Players play with injuries all the time, it's always a risk but teams would rarely fill a bench if putting out 100% fit players.

 

Because it was clearly obvious he was not fit in the games he played and we're not talking about a minor injury here. We're talking about an ACL tear. You also keep saying some advice about being able to continue, but obviously this was all taken into consideration and the recommendation was for surgery. You believe what you want to though.

[Optimistic Nut]

38 minutes ago, Away Toon said:

Fit or not he’s way down the list to play for the Netherlands. Far too slow for a start.

 

He was called up to their squad towards the end of last season, so would make perfect sense from his point of view to not want surgery to stay in and around the squad with the Euros coming up.

[madras]

18 minutes ago, et tu brute said:

 

Because it was clearly obvious he was not fit in the games he played and we're not talking about a minor injury here. We're talking about an ACL tear. You also keep saying some advice about being able to continue, but obviously this was all taken into consideration and the recommendation was for surgery. You believe what you want to though.

It wasn't clear he wasn't fit, it was clear he wasn't as good as he had been (its bye the bye but Bruno hasnt been as good as he was last season without carrying an injury), that's as likely to be psychological as physical, but he was still our best option and was able to play on advice given.

[et tu brute]

2 minutes ago, madras said:

It wasn't clear he wasn't fit, it was clear he wasn't as good as he had been (its bye the bye but Bruno hasnt been as good as he was last season without carrying an injury), that's as likely to be psychological as physical, but he was still our best option and was able to play on advice given.

 

As I said you believe what you want to believe. Bruno hasn't been as good this seaon as for large parts he has been playing with Longstaff and Miley (he has still been very good mind). I totally disagree with you, but you're entitled to your opinion.

[Conjo]

13 hours ago, Dr Jinx said:

I’d be fairly pissed off if I was Botman reading those quotes today. Regardless of what happens, the manager must always shield blame from a player unless it’s something absolutely mental.

 

If you'd get pissed off by that small remark you must have an incredibly thin skin, which I doubt is the case in Botman.

 

Also blows the "sack all the medical people"-brigade that came out the woodwork when his injury was announced clean off. Seems the medical team at the club were entirely in the right, so kudos to Howe for that bit of information.

[loki679]

I don't want to live in a world where an employer can force an employee to have surgery against their wishes.

 

No blame to be apportioned here.  He got advice, he took a chance, it didn't pay off.

[Sibierski]

Wonder if long term, the damage is now done with the relationship between player and club? Asset now depreciating in value, not helped this season, not going to help next season. If we invest in a long term LCB in summer, doubt Botman when he comes back would be content being a back up if he wants to push for a World Cup 26 place.

[Ben]

4 minutes ago, Sibierski said:

Wonder if long term, the damage is now done with the relationship between player and club? Asset now depreciating in value, not helped this season, not going to help next season. If we invest in a long term LCB in summer, doubt Botman when he comes back would be content being a back up if he wants to push for a World Cup 26 place.

I think we would buy a new defender even if he was fit

[M1tche]

Some advised surgery, some said he'd be OK to play through, player made a choice to play through. Don't see why it's such a big issue. 

 

Sometime Drs advise to turn off life support, family refuse and the patient recovers. I know Drs are highly qualified, but they're not always right. 

 

He and we took a risk, it didn't work out. It's s a shame, but it's not a reason to overly criticise anyone. If he had had the surgery initially we would have had times where we could have had 1 of our 1st choice back 5 playing as well

[Sibierski]

30 minutes ago, M1tche said:

 

He and we took a risk, it didn't work out. It's s a shame, but it's not a reason to overly criticise anyone. If he had had the surgery initially we would have had times where we could have had 1 of our 1st choice back 5 playing as well

We didn’t take the risk though, he did, with highly likely the view of wanting to play at Euros. Now we lose him for next season, after being hampered this season by not having him for large part.

 

Having only one available of back 5 shouldn’t play a part either, as we should always be looking long term. 

[M1tche]

9 minutes ago, Sibierski said:

We didn’t take the risk though, he did, with highly likely the view of wanting to play at Euros. Now we lose him for next season, after being hampered this season by not having him for large part.

 

Having only one available of back 5 shouldn’t play a part either, as we should always be looking long term. 

I'd still say all parties took a risk. If all the medical people said he needed an op, the club would have pushed him harder, because of the mixed information I think the club did all they could in this case. 

[Shadow Puppets]

I’ll try to find out a few more details on this today (as well as the Tonali stuff)

[Shadow Puppets]

Nothing new today… Just a reiteration of everything we know / everything I was told before.

[Ikon]

Botman Gen 2.0 coming.

[PauloGeordio]

3 minutes ago, Ikon said:

Botman Gen 2.0 coming.