Alexander Isak

[Heron]

38 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Trippier is not a defensive artist. It's not even a strength of his game. I wouldn't even describe him as a talented defender like AWB. AWB ability to shift his feet, the natural pace and acceleration, timing and technique of his tackles is a genuine talent.

 

Trippier has learnt that side of the game and he's got much better at it but it's not one of his footballing gifts. He's also learnt all the other aspects of defending well too. Same for Dani Alves, Marcelo. But ther talents aren't in defending. Someone like Rheece James has the talent to play central midfield  and centre back at a high level - I think he has numerous times actually. He's genuinely a super talent. 

 

And to Trips credit. He has the mentality to maximise his talent at the highest level. ASM doesn't. ASM won't have a better career than Trips but it's not through a lack of talent.

 

I think people under-rate how much talent it takes to be great at dribbling. Timing, balance, pace, acceleration, agility etc. these are things that are difficult to coach and learn even with a willing and capable learner. Where as most aspects to defending are easier to learn and to coach.. That's how you get career right-wingers (Ashley Young, Antonio Valencia, Jesus Navas, Nolberto Solano etc.) making good RB's later in their career as their physical gifts start to diminish. It's easier. You rarely have it happening that a RB moves forward in the game in their latter years.

 

Who would you say is more talented, Solano or Trips?

 

As i've said in other places. It takes a lot more than talent to have a succesful football career. So the career outcomes aren't tightly related. Who is more talented Gary Neville or Hatem Ben Arfa? Hatem Ben Arfa or Trippier? HBA easily.

Hatem Ben Arfa is a more skilled attacker, he wasn't a better footballer than Neville or Trippier though.

 

I agree with your comments re. Dribbling and the capability to learn defensive skills, but not everyone has it in them. There are a lot, lot of talented footballers who are unbelievably talented and skillful who simply cannot read the game like a lot of defenders can. That's why players like Trippier, Solano, etc. Are for me very talented footballers because they understand the game more than just playing it. That's why the absolute elite players are elite, because they have the technical ability to do anything with a ball but can also read the game and anticipate it ahead of others.

 

Re. Solano vs Trippier, I'd struggle with that in all honesty. I rate Solano very, very highly, but Trippier has also won more and arguably played at higher levels.

[Heron]

32 minutes ago, Hanshithispantz said:

Said it loads but Maxi is one of our most dangerous passers in the final 3rd. It’s not even like it’s a hard attribute to spot, he consistently sets it up on a plate for people.

 

His fitness is his major drawback.

 

 

 

Genuine question: what's his goals and assists like?

[Heron]

9 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Is being a defender not a talent in it's own right? A lot of all time attracting players wouldn't have the discipline or the reading of the game (from a defensive PoV) to play a defensive position.

 

 

 

I am of this view.

[Kid Icarus]

It's much easier to defend than attack in my experience like. Teams like Stoke, Wigan, Bolton, Burnley etc weren't relatively successful with a team largely full of cloggers who got everyone behind the ball for nothing. 

[Heron]

7 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

It's much easier to defend than attack in my experience like. Teams like Stoke, Wigan, Bolton, Burnley etc weren't relatively successful with a team largely full of cloggers who got everyone behind the ball for nothing. 

What you're explaining is a team though, not individuals. A team defending is about cohesiveness, communication and organisation, which are more nurture than nature for love of a better term. I guess, all defending is more nurture than nature compared with attacking talent. However, it is a talent that not all players can nurture, because not all players can read the game. A lot of defenders are far more talented at reading the game than attackers, despite attackers being more technically gifted, in my opinion.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by Heron

[The College Dropout]

16 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Is being a defender not a talent in it's own right? A lot of all time attracting players wouldn't have the discipline or the reading of the game (from a defensive PoV) to play a defensive position.

 

 

 

Yes but it requires less talent and more application of experience, concentration, discipline, bravery, dark arts, organisational skills, communication etc. Size is also an outsized factor.

 

The least talented footballers in a team tend to be defenders. That's why when one can really play football some dafty will talk about playing him in midfield. Then with less space and time on the ball, their relative lack of footballing ability stands out. Declan Rice would've made a fantastic CB and probably would be under Pep.

29 minutes ago, Heron said:

Could those RWs defend as well as Dani Alves?

You're just arguing with me to argue here. Was Dani Alves talented at defending? Was that a strength of his game? Again, he learnt that part of the game but it was never a strength. Fullbacks don't tend to win the biggest individual prizes for a reason.

 

You listen to professional footballers and they all say the same. Even TAA, "so good, he could play CM" because CMs are generally more talented than fullbacks.

[Heron]

1 minute ago, The College Dropout said:

Yes but it requires less talent and more application of experience, concentration, discipline, bravery, dark arts, organisational skills, communication etc. Size is also an outsized factor.

 

The least talented footballers in a team tend to be defenders. That's why when one can really play football some dafty will talk about playing him in midfield. Then with less space and time on the ball, their relative lack of footballing ability stands out. Declan Rice would've made a fantastic CB and probably would be under Pep.

You're just arguing with me to argue here. Was Dani Alves talented at defending? Was that a strength of his game? Again, he learnt that part of the game but it was never a strength. Fullbacks don't tend to win the biggest individual prizes for a reason.

 

You listen to professional footballers and they all say the same. Even TAA, "so good, he could play CM" because CMs are generally more talented than fullbacks.

I'm not arguing for arguing sake. I just don't share your opinion that attackers are more talented than defenders. They're more talented in aspects of their game just as defenders are more talented in other aspects, learned or otherwise.

[Kid Icarus]

10 minutes ago, Heron said:

What you're explaining is a team though, not individuals. A team defending is about cohesiveness, communication and organisation, which are more nurture than nature for love of a better term. I guess, all defending is more nurture than nature compared with attacking talent. However, it is a talent that not all players can nurture, because not all players can read the game. A lot of defenders are far more talented at reading the game than attackers, despite attackers being more technically gifted, in my opinion.

 

 

 

 

I agree that it's teamwork like, I just think it's a lot easier to play that way than it is to get on the ball and attack. 

[The Prophet]

Going back to Isak does he need a trademark celebration?

[Heron]

1 minute ago, The Prophet said:

Going back to Isak does he need a trademark celebration?

Be good if he had one.

[The College Dropout]

 

3 minutes ago, Heron said:

I'm not arguing for arguing sake. I just don't share your opinion that attackers are more talented than defenders. They're more talented in aspects of their game just as defenders are more talented in other aspects, learned or otherwise.

 

We are talking about talent.

 

Talent 

1.

natural aptitude or skill.

 

If you have to learn it after 12 years as a professional. Well done. That's a skill you've developed. But that's not one of your talents.

 

"The term talent refers to an inborn and the special ability of a person to do something. A skill is an expertise, which is acquired by the person by learning. Talent is God gifted ability, whereas Skill is an ability in which you put your time and efforts to develop."

 

Trippier is a more skilled RB than ASM is a winger. Agree with that all day. But who is more naturally talented at football.... hmmm...

 

Gary Neville would tell you HBA is more talented than him. If HBA had Neville's talent, he wouldn't have even been a professional footballer. HBA was more talented than Benzema. He didn't become a better player and had a far inferior career. But talent? Benzema again will tell you HBA was more talented.

 

“When I was looking after them both, in the U17s, I went to see them in training. I saw Karim watching Hatem mischievously, to see what he was doing. Karim was then looking to do it again and again. Thanks to Hatem, Karim, who understood that he was second best, realised that talent wasn’t going to be enough. That gave him that desire to be the best, and he has got there. As for Hatem, he didn’t have the same realisation, he thought that talent would be enough. And when we watch him now, he’s still convinced. I’m sure that some psychiatrists would rack their brains with a character as difficult as Hatem’s” said Frederic Guerra to RMC.

[The College Dropout]

1 hour ago, madras said:

That's interesting because the defenders win vastly more of the battles. Forwards get the glory though and it's a media game.

Yes defenders win most of the battles because defending is easier.

 

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

'scoring is the hardest thing to do in football' was one of my recent football pet hates. I really don't think it is, for me it's dribbling past defenders that know what they're doing when you can't just rely on pace. 

 

 

 

Overall I would say scoring is the hardest thing to do because a lot of it is mental. The best strikers, keep making the same runs again, again, again and again. You need to keep going. You can make the run 7 times, 6 times the ball doesn't even come. 7th time you miss the chance. The best strikers go again and don't let the miss dishearten them. It's like being good at cold sales. Even the best cold salesman misses with 92 of his 100 daily calls. The best ones will make 120 calls a day and have the skill to convert 13 into genuine leads.

 

That's why scoring is the hardest thing. Someone like Harry Kane is technically A1. Can do difficult finishes. BUt also has that killer instinct to keep making his runs. Keep making those moves. Being more aware than defenders. All that mental stuff.

 

Technically - agree dribbling is the most difficult. At the highest level, it's fairly rare to be beaten by pace alone. Haaland has a lot of pace but he rarely dribbles past players.

[Collage]

1 hour ago, The Prophet said:

Is being a defender not a talent in it's own right? A lot of all time attracting players wouldn't have the discipline or the reading of the game (from a defensive PoV) to play a defensive position.

 

 

 

Yeah, take someone like Paolo Maldini for example.

[SEMTEX]

23 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Going back to Isak does he need a trademark celebration?

I’m all for his little arm waggly wing thing after his first forest goal being his celebration. Could be expanded on of course. Has a bit of the studger about it. Sturridge probably got some merch leftover than Isak could repurpose. 

[Kid Icarus]

I bet you'll struggle to name an all-time defender who wasn't also class on the ball.

[madras]

3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Yes defenders win most of the battles because defending is easier.

 

Overall I would say scoring is the hardest thing to do because a lot of it is mental. The best strikers, keep making the same runs again, again, again and again. You need to keep going. You can make the run 7 times, 6 times the ball doesn't even come. 7th time you miss the chance. The best strikers go again and don't let the miss dishearten them. It's like being good at cold sales. Even the best cold salesman misses with 92 of his 100 daily calls. The best ones will make 120 calls a day and have the skill to convert 13 into genuine leads.

 

That's why scoring is the hardest thing. Someone like Harry Kane is technically A1. Can do difficult finishes. BUt also has that killer instinct to keep making his runs. Keep making those moves. Being more aware than defenders. All that mental stuff.

 

Technically - agree dribbling is the most difficult. At the highest level, it's fairly rare to be beaten by pace alone. Haaland has a lot of pace but he rarely dribbles past players.

Is scoring harder than reading a forward to stop him,  harder than spotting a pass that cuts out 3 players, harder than positioning yourself to help your team advance whilst also being in a position to cover should your team lose the ball, harder than making a great save.

 

Harder ? How do you quantify harder ?

 

 

[madras]

28 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

Going back to Isak does he need a trademark celebration?

Honestly couldn't give a fuck 

[Vinny Green Balls]

Just now, madras said:

Is scoring harder than reading a forward to stop him,  harder than spotting a pass that cuts out 3 players, harder than positioning yourself to help your team advance whilst also being in a position to cover should your team lose the ball, harder than making a great save.

 

Harder ? How do you quantify harder ?

 

 

Don't make eye contact with him.

[The College Dropout]

1 minute ago, madras said:

Is scoring harder than reading a forward to stop him,  harder than spotting a pass that cuts out 3 players, harder than positioning yourself to help your team advance whilst also being in a position to cover should your team lose the ball, harder than making a great save.

 

Harder ? How do you quantify harder ?

 

 

Yes.

 

In warfare, defending a position is significantly easier than making ground and seizing a target. The hardest thing is seizing the target.

 

Generally attacking is harder than defending in football. Breaking down the different aspects of attacking in difficulty is.. difficult. Because aspects of attacking are difficult in different ways. I don't think Lewandowski is a more talented footballer than Benzema for example. But Lewa is a better goalscorer. A lot of that is down to mentality. Benzema is more talented and a better overall player imo.

 

But to play along. Hard / diffiicult = diminished chances of success and the greater skill required to succeed. Scoring 20 PL goals a season, is more difficult than spotting a pass that cuts out 3 players 20 times a season.

 

The great thing about football is that it's a team sport with a wide variety of active roles that require different talents, skills and expertise. And therefore requires different types of people. Pep's football requires not only a lot of footballing ability but also requires a certain personality profile and aptitude to change. Talented but pliable unless so talented Pep will work around you (Haaland & Ribery for example). I think the best Rafa team would require less talent but arguably equally as pliable a personality type. Carlo could deal with more talent and less pliable than them both.

[The College Dropout]

16 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

I bet you'll struggle to name an all-time defender who wasn't also class on the ball.

Good enough on the ball to become an all-time midfielder?

 

Sweeper / Libero days - aye. And even those, were converted central midfielders - they became Sweepers as that became the most important role in the team. Today that player is Rodri and would primarily play in midfield.

[BonesJones]

Theres more chance of one of us pulling off a tackle on Messi, than there is of one of us dribbling past Dani Alves.

 

Defending is easier.

[madras]

15 minutes ago, The College Dropout said:

Yes.

 

In warfare, defending a position is significantly easier than making ground and seizing a target. The hardest thing is seizing the target.

 

Generally attacking is harder than defending in football. Breaking down the different aspects of attacking in difficulty is.. difficult. Because aspects of attacking are difficult in different ways. I don't think Lewandowski is a more talented footballer than Benzema for example. But Lewa is a better goalscorer. A lot of that is down to mentality. Benzema is more talented and a better overall player imo.

 

But to play along. Hard / diffiicult = diminished chances of success and the greater skill required to succeed. Scoring 20 PL goals a season, is more difficult than spotting a pass that cuts out 3 players 20 times a season.

 

The great thing about football is that it's a team sport with a wide variety of active roles that require different talents, skills and expertise. And therefore requires different types of people. Pep's football requires not only a lot of footballing ability but also requires a certain personality profile and aptitude to change. Talented but pliable unless so talented Pep will work around you (Haaland & Ribery for example). I think the best Rafa team would require less talent but arguably equally as pliable a personality type. Carlo could deal with more talent and less pliable than them both.

I've always seen attacking and defending as part of the same thing and the idea of scoring being "harder" than other aspects of the game is a bit silly as it's all the same thing, getting the ball to go where you want. Some goals are "easier" than others to score, some that easy they're miss hit and fluked.

 

 

Edited March 21, 2023 by madras

[HaydnNUFC]

32 minutes ago, madras said:

Honestly couldn't give a fuck 

 

This tickled me.

[The College Dropout]

2 minutes ago, madras said:

I've always seen attacking and defending as part of the same thing and the idea of scoring being "harder" than other aspects of the game is a bit silly as it's all the same thing, getting the ball to go where you want. Some goals are "easier" than others to score, some that easy they're miss hit and fluked.

 

 

 

You think Paul Dummett could fashion a career as a winger if he had the right mentality? ASM could fashion a career as a fullback if he had the right mentality,

[madras]

Just now, The College Dropout said:

You think Paul Dummett could fashion a career as a winger if he had the right mentality? ASM could fashion a career as a fullback if he had the right mentality,

Your point ?