Harvey Barnes

[AyeDubbleYoo]

4 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Wilson's injury record has always been as it is since 2015, most of which under Howe himself. If they couldn't see that then, bliddy hell. With Almirón, again on naff squad planning, lack of ruthlessness/boldness etc, he shouldn't have been given a new contract in February 2023. We should've cashed in after that form he just wouldn't have replicated as his value would never have been higher and he was still under 30. Its that sort of outgoing we've deliberately seemed to avoid outside of selling Chris Wood. As I said in the Howe thread also, I'd have (the potentially unpopular opinion of) not renewing Joelinton's contract summer just gone and selling him for a younger, more designated DM.

 

I'm not suggesting us signing a RW instead of Gordon. It was putting the £40m we spent on Barnes on a RW and we'd likely have had a decent pool to pick from given we had the pull of CL football.

 

 

 

I get all your points, we probably shouldn’t debate it all again

[80]

1 hour ago, Doctor Zaius said:

Genuinely not sure why we signed him when we had just splashed out 40M on Gordon. Either they were writing Gordon off after his fairly poor start, trusted Murphy/Almiron to do a job longer term or assumed you'd be able to play one of Gordon or Barnes on the right. All of which are wrong. 

 

We have two quality left wingers, neither of which are effective on the right, vying for one position. While we have quite obvious weaknesses elsewhere. 

Agree with all that.

 

There was one other motivation I thought we might have had for signing him, which was basically that we wanted to have two first XIs to deal with the heavy European season. Basically treating them like tyres on an F1 car, switching them over game by game to retain full energy levels. But that never happened either...

[Lush Vlad]

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/anthony-gordon/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/503733

 

Anthony Gordon has played right wing 48 times.  He seems to only play there for us as a last resort, when we have players missing or when we are chasing a game and he gets shifted across to accommodate Barnes.  At this point, he often looks knackered so not as effective due to it being late in the game or perhaps when he plays there, he is even sulking a bit at moving position?  

 

I really don't buy that we can't play him there.  Especially when the alternatives are Miggy and Murphy.  

 

He is quite a versatile player that can play along the front 3 and I don't think his skill set means he would be ineffective on the right.  Is he better on the left? Yes.  Are Murphy/Almiron on the right and Barnes on the bench a better option?  No. 

 

Barnes has been involved in 4 of our 8 league goals (3 goals and 1 assist) and all the goals were great finishes.  When we are going through a scoring drought.  I just don't think we should be leaving his kind of production on the bench or taking him off early'ish in games, personally.  He is always in and out of the team and seems to always be the one to make way when subs are made or when we revert back to Gordon starting on the left. 

[HaydnNUFC]

9 minutes ago, Lush Vlad said:

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/anthony-gordon/leistungsdatendetails/spieler/503733

 

Anthony Gordon has played right wing 48 times.  He seems to only play there for us as a last resort, when we have players missing or when we are chasing a game and he gets shifted across to accommodate Barnes.  At this point, he often looks knackered so not as effective due to it being late in the game or perhaps when he plays there, he is even sulking a bit at moving position?  

 

I really don't buy that we can't play him there.  Especially when the alternatives are Miggy and Murphy.  

 

He is quite a versatile player that can play along the front 3 and I don't think his skill set means he would be ineffective on the right.  Is he better on the left? Yes.  Are Murphy/Almiron on the right and Barnes on the bench a better option?  No. 

 

Barnes has been involved in 4 of our 8 league goals (3 goals and 1 assist) and all the goals were great finishes.  When we are going through a scoring drought.  I just don't think we should be leaving his kind of production on the bench or taking him off early'ish in games, personally.  He is always in and out of the team and seems to always be the one to make way when subs are made or when we revert back to Gordon starting on the left. 

 

He's not been that effective there for us and he's coming off the back of a season of 10 goals and 10 assists from the LW. Moving him to accommodate Barnes who has yet to show signs when starting games hasn't bore that much fruit the few times we've done it.

 

 

Edited October 22 by HaydnNUFC

[Lush Vlad]

10 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

He's not been that effective there for us and he's coming off the back of a season of 10 goals and 10 assists from the LW. Moving him to accommodate Barnes who has yet to show signs when starting games hasn't bore fruit the few times we've done it.

 

We have a huge amount of evidence from 2017 and 2019 to suggest that Murphy and Almiron are pretty much ineffective on the right, though?  Bar that purple patch for Almiron and the odd game under Howe for Murphy.  It has been pretty grim stuff for the most part. 

 

How many games have we actually persisted with trying Gordon right and Barnes left?  How many times have we seen this overall and for how many games in a row?  1 or 2 consecutive games at most, at a guess?  It is too much of a small sample size to make any cast iron opinions.  Whereas that isn't the case for the other RW options mentioned above. 

 

I might be going all conspiracy theorist.  But I think the few times I have seen it, Gordon has sulked when he's played there and Howe is opting to keep him happy by playing him on the left. 

 

Gordon hasn't really looked good wherever he has played this season, so it's a bit of a moot point IMO.  He was at least lively the last two games.  But his finishing was atrocious.  Not saying it is the case.  But what's to say he wasn't going through a right purple patch sort of similar to Miggy last season when it came to hugely increasing his usual goal return?  I don't think he has suddenly became a good finisher, even with all of the goals last season.  His attributes are more his ridiculous pace, engine and work rate.  I think he is relentless and gets a lot of opportunities to assist or score because of this.  When on a going day, there is no let up and he is constantly at the full back and up and down the pitch. 

 

Looking at a lot of those positions Murphy had on the weekend and the space he had to attack in the first half.  Fucking hell, Gordon would have had a field day IMO.  If they want to shift over to double up on him, then great.  More space on the left for Hall and Barnes.  

 

Barnes is a natural and ruthless finisher and I think we should look to at least persevere with the front 3 of Barnes-Isak-Gordon for a while.  It has been pretty fluid at times and Isak will often take up wide positions, Gordon and Barnes could swap, which teams used to do all the while.  Pep has certainly brought it back into fashion this season, for example. 

 

FWIW, I don't think Howe will do this and it is a big complaint of mine with Howe currently.  That and his subs. 

 

 

Edited October 22 by Lush Vlad

[Sima]

If Gordon really wants that move to Liverpool he’d be stupid not to work on his RW play with Salah having one foot out of the door.

 

 

Edited October 22 by Sima

[Gallowgate Toon]

9 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

He's not been that effective there for us and he's coming off the back of a season of 10 goals and 10 assists from the LW. Moving him to accommodate Barnes who has yet to show signs when starting games hasn't bore that much fruit the few times we've done it.

 

 

 

To be fair, Barnes has 2 goals in 4 starts this season, 1 from a sub appearance. He's also not had a run of more than 3 games starting for us ever, iirc. He's not really had a fair crack.

 

He also assisted Gordon for his only open play goal this season (where he was playing RW). BIG hasn't really been given a chance to develop. 

[nufcjmc]

I guess had we been in Europe and Gordan was the type to burn out/need a rest etc then having someone like Barnes makes perfect sense for 2 top quality wing options but as we are right now it just seems another burden/headache how to keep both happy and in their preferred position and does make us lop sided in terms of wing quality. 

[Sibierski]

1 hour ago, Doctor Zaius said:

Genuinely not sure why we signed him when we had just splashed out 40M on Gordon. Either they were writing Gordon off after his fairly poor start, trusted Murphy/Almiron to do a job longer term or assumed you'd be able to play one of Gordon or Barnes on the right. All of which are wrong. 

 

We have two quality left wingers, neither of which are effective on the right, vying for one position. While we have quite obvious weaknesses elsewhere. 

I feel either can play on right comfortably, more Barnes, where his natural instinct to get into the far post for crosses in would suit him. Whereas Gordon still hasn’t improved that side of his game enough yet. 

[Jonas]

On the trajectory we were on he was a perfecly fine signing. Improving on the hated Murphy and Almiron is what people want and exactly what the club should be doing to build a squad which we widely regarded as weak beyond the first team.  Only because we've had our wings clipped by new legislation can it be argued he's not a good signing.

[Kanji]

Someone post the documentary screen grab of RW Gordon. 

[TRC]

31 minutes ago, Jonas said:

On the trajectory we were on he was a perfecly fine signing. Improving on the hated Murphy and Almiron is what people want and exactly what the club should be doing to build a squad which we widely regarded as weak beyond the first team.  Only because we've had our wings clipped by new legislation can it be argued he's not a good signing.

Only because our wings are clipped? Our policy has been pretty poor 60m on fullbacks for the future while not getting a true 6, two left wingers, no CB not moving players on when we should have, refusal to sign technical players.

 

Its been a very poor across the board for a while.

[andycap]

Just play Barnes rightwing all the time and switch him around with gordon now and again. 

It's really not that difficult like. 

Let Murphy and miggy be subs for tired legs. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

42 minutes ago, TRC said:

Only because our wings are clipped? Our policy has been pretty poor 60m on fullbacks for the future while not getting a true 6, two left wingers, no CB not moving players on when we should have, refusal to sign technical players.

 

Its been a very poor across the board for a while.

 

Both of those fullbacks are playing every week at the moment. And it's only fans that are saying we want a DM because we think somehow standing a bloke in the middle of midfield will solve something. 

 

I need a break

[TRC]

19 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

Both of those fullbacks are playing every week at the moment. And it's only fans that are saying we want a DM because we think somehow standing a bloke in the middle of midfield will solve something. 

 

I need a break

Bruno is a top level 6, but hes even better advanced imo. All of our CMs best position is the 8, thats poor recruitment.

 

Both of those fullbacks are playing but Lewis Hall was not worth the money at the time, investment was needed else where. Especially Hall when Livra can also play LB.

[HaydnNUFC]

30 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

 

Both of those fullbacks are playing every week at the moment. And it's only fans that are saying we want a DM because we think somehow standing a bloke in the middle of midfield will solve something. 

 

I need a break

 

Howay Ian, man.  It's more than that and you know it.

[madras]

4 hours ago, Doctor Zaius said:

Genuinely not sure why we signed him when we had just splashed out 40M on Gordon. Either they were writing Gordon off after his fairly poor start, trusted Murphy/Almiron to do a job longer term or assumed you'd be able to play one of Gordon or Barnes on the right. All of which are wrong. 

 

We have two quality left wingers, neither of which are effective on the right, vying for one position. While we have quite obvious weaknesses elsewhere. 

Because Gordon can play right along the line, played a lot on the right for Everton and no body thought he'd take off the way he did after Barnes got injured.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

29 minutes ago, TRC said:

Bruno is a top level 6, but hes even better advanced imo. All of our CMs best position is the 8, thats poor recruitment.

 

Both of those fullbacks are playing but Lewis Hall was not worth the money at the time, investment was needed else where. Especially Hall when Livra can also play LB.

Doesn’t seem that bad if Bruno is a top 6 and the others are best at 8. Actually it seems pretty good. 
 

Hall was a superb signing and both him and Tino were two of the countries highest-rated youngsters. I don’t get this line of thinking at all. If we didn’t have Hall we’d be desperate for a LB and if we didn’t have Tino we’d be playing Krafth at RB. 
 

Just enjoy our signings man. Because we haven’t solved every issue yet doesn’t mean we haven’t done some really good business. 
 

People really must have blocked out how shite our squad used to be. 

[AyeDubbleYoo]

22 minutes ago, HaydnNUFC said:

 

Howay Ian, man.  It's more than that and you know it.

Aye I know, but at the same time I don’t see many tactical breakdowns of how a dedicated DM would work with our system and style of play.

 

I’m sure there are merits to both approaches but Bruno is brilliant at what he does in that position. 

[TRC]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Doesn’t seem that bad if Bruno is a top 6 and the others are best at 8. Actually it seems pretty good. 
 

Hall was a superb signing and both him and Tino were two of the countries highest-rated youngsters. I don’t get this line of thinking at all. If we didn’t have Hall we’d be desperate for a LB and if we didn’t have Tino we’d be playing Krafth at RB. 
 

Just enjoy our signings man. Because we haven’t solved every issue yet doesn’t mean we haven’t done some really good business. 
 

People really must have blocked out how shite our squad used to be. 

Livra, Kelly and Burn can all play LB.

 

I just think we need some ability in the final third, moving Bruno there would have been ideal he was great there the year we stayed up and has said its his preferred position.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

6 minutes ago, TRC said:

Livra, Kelly and Burn can all play LB.

 

I just think we need some ability in the final third, moving Bruno there would have been ideal he was great there the year we stayed up and has said its his preferred position.

Yes but not very well and not as well as Hall. And we didn’t have Kelly when we signed Hall. 
 

Beggars belief that signing someone as talented as Hall is somehow bad. 
 

We can’t do anything right at the moment. The season has got off to a difficult start and we’ve all become emo about everything NUFC has done. 

 

 

Edited October 22 by AyeDubbleYoo

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We have so many debates where we act like something doesn’t make sense when the explanation is fairly easy to see. 
 

Not that we always have to agree, but it’s weird to act like there’s somehow no reasoning behind it. 

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

No everything is incredibly obvious. Football is littered with panaceas and NUFC is staffed by serial dummies.

[HaydnNUFC]

16 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

Aye I know, but at the same time I don’t see many tactical breakdowns of how a dedicated DM would work with our system and style of play.

 

I’m sure there are merits to both approaches but Bruno is brilliant at what he does in that position. 

 

It limits him at being brilliant further forward more often which can give us another dimension in our attacking play (as seen on Saturday with the pass for Isak's 1v1 amongst others) but it doesn't happen as often as it could/should. A DM would unlock him more to be able to do that whilst simultaneously providing defensive cover. The most ideal midfield 3 imo would be a DM at the base with Bruno and Tonali as the 8s*. They would then be able to interchange with Willock and Miley when they are back up to speed. It's a road of playstyle evolution we could've went down which would've improved us imo, but chose not to.

 

*football hipster wanker term, but you know what I mean

 

 

Edited October 22 by HaydnNUFC

[nufcjmc]

2 minutes ago, AyeDubbleYoo said:

We have so many debates where we act like something doesn’t make sense when the explanation is fairly easy to see. 
 

Not that we always have to agree, but it’s weird to act like there’s somehow no reasoning behind it. 

Agree with the sentiment and plugging for positivity as its not been "THAT" bad. The main criticism i see is we had a finite amount of money and a squad that needed money sprinkled on it everywhere even if that meant not being able to get marquee players everywhere and after a fair few windows we have positions that have yet to he addressed. Weaknesses in some of the play is also still here from last season despite return of players. The comment from Howe in the summer that very few players could improve us just seems laughable really. As we all know as most teams Improve year on year staying still is the same as going backwards.