Group C: 1. England, 2. Denmark, 3. Slovenia (Q), 4. Serbia

[Robbo2]

15 minutes ago, huss9 said:

 

some honesty.

Obviously we're biased, but he's such a good interviewee - way more actual answers than Kane, Stones etc trotting out the party line

[Heron]

Just now, Robbo2 said:

Obviously we're biased, but he's such a good interviewee - way more actual answers than Kane, Stones etc trotting out the party line

Also feel he's become a lot more well rounded as an individual since getting away from Everton.

[leffe186]

31 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

The whole tournament has felt off for me from the start tbh, I don't even feel bothered.

 

Through all the whinging from a lot of people, 2018 to now has been a lot of fun, we've had an underdog feeling that really got everyone pulling together. But the claims from some about these players being this incredible generation have embedded themselves and there's an expectation rather than pluckiness and to me that's part of what's ruined it, everyone hates 'England expects' England. 

I really think people are over-analyzing things. This hasn’t been shit because of expectations or players not trying or caring. It’s been shit because of a glaring fundamental tactical error by Southgate that he apparently just refuses to see.

 

Where it gets more complex is when we seem to sit back after scoring a goal, but we can’t even judge that properly until we’re playing a proper XI with a proper LM/LW. I don’t see any point in more extensive analysis or criticism until he fixes that. It changes so much.

[ryanegg]

The games are just so boring. Spoke to numerous people who aren’t even arsed about watching England atm as there is just no excitement. Would love to know how the players really feel about Southgate. 

[Lush Vlad]

That could be the worst game of football I’ve ever seen. We watched Sounness, Allardyce, Pardew and Bruce ball. Yet this is worse  

 

 

[Lush Vlad]

39 minutes ago, Wullie said:

Feel like I'm completely missing something with Bellingham, he was a powerful box to box midfielder 2 years ago at the World Cup, why the fuck is he now an undroppable number 10? I thought he was absolutely pathetic today, and against Denmark. Either drop him deeper with Rice or just drop him. 

The last two games. He has just got in the way. Wants loads of touches when it’s not on. Drifts into space where Saka or Kane are or where Foden wants to be/should be, then dives when nothing is on. 
 

He is top class. But like plenty in this team. He has been shoehorned into a position that clearly doesn’t work. Just because he plays there for Madrid. 

[Kid Icarus]

17 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

I really think people are over-analyzing things. This hasn’t been shit because of expectations or players not trying or caring. It’s been shit because of a glaring fundamental tactical error by Southgate that he apparently just refuses to see.

 

Where it gets more complex is when we seem to sit back after scoring a goal, but we can’t even judge that properly until we’re playing a proper XI with a proper LM/LW. I don’t see any point in more extensive analysis or criticism until he fixes that. It changes so much.

It's 100% been shit for me personally because of expectations, that's just my own feeling on it based on what I get out of it. The fun and pluckiness that was still there at the WC has turned to resentment and expectation and I felt that going into this, not just now. Underdog England has gone, we're fully England expects England again now and I hate everything about that version of England.

 

The 'we should be doing so much better with these players' factor has been here post 2018 and slowly crept in to the point - probably since Rice and Bellingham's transfers - that I think it's taken over as the popular opinion now.

 

Obviously doesn't help that we've been shite as well, if we had performed like at previous tournaments it might have overridden it.

 

 

Edited June 25 by Kid Icarus

[80]

34 minutes ago, Robbo2 said:

Obviously we're biased, but he's such a good interviewee - way more actual answers than Kane, Stones etc trotting out the party line

Probably won't see grass again until August as a consequence.

[Yorkie]

1 hour ago, Kid Icarus said:

The whole tournament has felt off for me from the start tbh, I don't even feel bothered.

 

Through all the whinging from a lot of people, 2018 to now has been a lot of fun, we've had an underdog feeling that really got everyone pulling together. But the claims from some about these players being this incredible generation have embedded themselves and there's an expectation rather than pluckiness and to me that's part of what's ruined it, everyone hates 'England expects' England. 

 

Yeah, this reflects my feelings pretty well. With the gradual improvement to the talent pool, it's all starting to feel very Sven era. It was during the tail end of that, and afterwards, that I became very ambivalent towards England. 

 

I'm frustrated by how poorly the team is playing and irritated by how needlessly boring the games have been, but the toxicity and misery is awful too. I'm not defending his performance this tournament - he's getting it wrong and the team has completely lost its way under his stewardship - but I hate that it's ending this way for Southgate.

 

The vibe going into this tournament was quite strange. We were among the favourites and people were crowing about that whilst simultaneously foaming at the fact we inevitably wouldn't win cos Southgate. Now everyone's predictions are seemingly coming to pass, it's furious vindication everywhere you look. It's so tedious and depressing and the antithesis of everything fun/hopeful about following England prior to now. 

 

Maybe things will change once our opponents will be required to win but there's little evidence of a coherent team here. 

[Kanj]

Most of englands best players play a pressing/counter pressing style of football and are really good at transitions and countering. The complete ignorance by Southgate to not even try and get the best out of that is a joke. 

[leffe186]

2 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

It's 100% been shit for me personally because of expectations, that's just my own feeling on it based on what I get out of it. The fun and pluckiness that was still there at the WC has turned to resentment and expectation and I felt that going into this, not just now. Underdog England has gone, we're fully England expects England again now.

 

The 'we should be doing so much better with these players' factor has been here post 2018 and slowly crept in to the point - probably since Rice and Bellingham's transfers - that I think it's taken over as the popular opinion now.

 

Obviously doesn't help that we've been shite as well, if we had performed like at previous tournaments it might have overridden it.

I think you’re right about the changes in expectation but that word covers a multitude of sins. There were always silly people who thought “we’ve got all these great players ergo we should be great” while ignoring the obvious deficiencies at the back and in the Director’s chair. But I’m with you in that I had expectations fuelled partly by Gordon’s good performances in the run up. It seemed like we had the skeleton of a really interesting team with lots of potential and some useful substitutes.

 

I’m 51, been watching and playing football for ever, pretty clever, and I think I’ve got a reasonable grasp of the game. I just feel like I’m being gaslit by Southgate. It’s all just so fucking stupid.
 

There’s a way to set up that builds around Kane, but we’ve not done that. Or that builds around Foden, but we’ve not done that. Or that builds around Bellingham, but we’ve not done that either.

 

It just all seems completely pointless until we do the obvious and play Gordon. Then we can have the discussion about who the middle three are, or if we fuck Kane off and have somebody who runs around up front, or if we tweak the FBs. I fear that TAA has already had his mind fried by trying to play CM.

 

Of course everyone is missing the obvious reason we’ve been shit. He didn’t pick a Spurs player.

[Abacus]

1 hour ago, Robbo2 said:

Obviously we're biased, but he's such a good interviewee - way more actual answers than Kane, Stones etc trotting out the party line

Agreed. And if Southgate doesn't see that, then he's daft.

 

You need someone to be honest and not just tow the party line - proud of him. Gordon should be starting, he's the breath of fresh air the team needs.

 

 

Edited June 25 by Abacus
I spelt tow as toe, became unhappy with that and then changed it. Sue me

[Kanj]

Good post @leffe186

 

It’s very “Gerrad and Lampard” right now for England and it’s PAINFULLY obvious to every human being watching the system and the players are not working. 
 

Have to say the team ethos is all off. It’s stupid to say there’s a lack of passion at times as it’s an overused excuse but there’s not many who seem to outwardly give a shit. I’m sure it’s different in the dressing room but they look like zombies, media trained zombies. 

[Kanj]

The aggressive attacking styles of Gordon and Palmer are 100% needed in this team from the start. 

[Nobody]

1 hour ago, Heron said:

If there was a lack of effort then aye, fair. There isn't a lack of effort though, so not sure what booing them achieves apart from airing frustration. Get more flies with sugar than shit.

This is a bit like Newcastle under Bruce or Pardew though, even though we might win a game or two, it's absolutely shite and completely unsustainable. Would you have any confidence in us beating a decent side playing like we have so far? 

[St. Maximin]

1 hour ago, Optimistic Nut said:

I think he's gone to shite but I can't hate Southgate. He did brilliantly to get to the last 4 twice in a row, don't care what anyone says. Give it to someone else after the Euros.

Why did he do brilliantly though? Surely he just beat the teams you’d expect him to? If we’d lost to Germany at home, Ukraine, Colombia or Sweden we wouldn’t be accepting that. 
 

He’s a lovely bloke no doubt and I like a lot of his positive impacts on the team as a whole, but he hasn’t achieved anything special on the pitch. He’s had his honeymoon period and he’s getting found out now if he hasn’t before. 

[Cf]

1-1

0-1

1-1

1-1

0-0

0-0

 

Is that the worst group of a tournament ever?

[Abacus]

It's all unraveling a bit now.

 

Really thought we'd win that before the game and that there'd be a rush on waistcoats.

 

Saying that, some of the players need to step up in the next round, there really doesn't seem to be a leader on the pitch - sometimes you have to do it yourself.

[Kid Icarus]

36 minutes ago, leffe186 said:

I think you’re right about the changes in expectation but that word covers a multitude of sins. There were always silly people who thought “we’ve got all these great players ergo we should be great” while ignoring the obvious deficiencies at the back and in the Director’s chair. But I’m with you in that I had expectations fuelled partly by Gordon’s good performances in the run up. It seemed like we had the skeleton of a really interesting team with lots of potential and some useful substitutes.

 

I’m 51, been watching and playing football for ever, pretty clever, and I think I’ve got a reasonable grasp of the game. I just feel like I’m being gaslit by Southgate. It’s all just so fucking stupid.
 

There’s a way to set up that builds around Kane, but we’ve not done that. Or that builds around Foden, but we’ve not done that. Or that builds around Bellingham, but we’ve not done that either.

 

It just all seems completely pointless until we do the obvious and play Gordon. Then we can have the discussion about who the middle three are, or if we fuck Kane off and have somebody who runs around up front, or if we tweak the FBs. I fear that TAA has already had his mind fried by trying to play CM.

 

Of course everyone is missing the obvious reason we’ve been shit. He didn’t pick a Spurs player.

People have always complained about Southgate not playing certain players at tournaments tbf. I still remember the incredulity when he played Trippier at left back in 2018. Then it was "why isn't he playing Trent/Grealish/Foden/Bellingham/Maddison/anyone but Maguire/Dier/Henderson/Mount" at previous tournaments since then, even when we were winning.

 

The difference now I think is that despite all the complaints in previous years, you could point to the scoreline, the players who were playing performing and scoring. 

 

Easy to forget that I think most people were happy with the squad looking like it was based on merit (a naive selection method imo) rather than his favourites. 

 

It still wouldn't surprise me if at some point we went Kane up top, Foden 10, Gordon left, Saka right, Rice and Bellingham midfield, just as everyone is saying is obvious, and for it to be an unmitigated disaster, because that's how these things seem to go.

 

Speaking of gaslighting, me and a few others on here probably felt like we were being gaslit by others who asserted we were playing badly, x should playing, y shouldn't be playing, better players than the golden generation etc all while we were beating teams they claimed we should be beating and getting to semi finals and finals they claimed we should be winning. 

 

in a way this tournament so far has felt like a self-fulfilling prophecy because now I'm actually seeing us play and get the results that Southgate's detractors always insisted was happening.

 

 

Edited June 25 by Kid Icarus

[Disco]

I’d absolutely love to know what they do in training RE: attacking.

[Yorkie]

9 minutes ago, Kid Icarus said:

in a way this tournament so far has felt like a self-fulfilling prophecy because now I'm actually seeing us play and get the results that Southgate's detractors always insisted was happening.

 

Again, my feelings exactly.

 

We've looked ropey at least once in the group in all of Southgate's tournaments; Belgium, Scotland, USA - but those occasions felt like a means to an end and you knew there was a functioning team there (as demonstrated by the later progress). That's what's missing this time; we're just plain shite. 

[samptime29]

We have been poor but if we can get a fucking tune going the potential draw looks winnable. Austria finishing top has really mixed it up.

[rgk_lfc]

12 minutes ago, samptime29 said:

We have been poor but if we can get a fucking tune going the potential draw looks winnable. Austria finishing top has really mixed it up.

His ability to land on the easier side of the draw is world class. 

[Super Duper Branko Strupar]

1 hour ago, Disco said:

I’d absolutely love to know what they do in training RE: attacking.

 

It's as if no one knows where someone else is going to be. They cant really expect anyone to be anywhere so there's no obvious moves, just in the moment passes. There's players everywhere, especially in the middle, but there's no predictability or structure. Bar Saka, who's essentially responsible for our ball carrying threat and up against 2 or 3 players when he tries. 

[Nine]

51 minutes ago, samptime29 said:

We have been poor but if we can get a fucking tune going the potential draw looks winnable. Austria finishing top has really mixed it up.

Out of any team on our side of the draw Austria is the one I’d most want to avoid at the moment, an ultra well drilled pressing side would give this current England team hell.

 

 

Edited June 26 by Nine