Punk77 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 It does seem like some people only want to believe the worst will happen. I can understand why a bit, but it gets a bit tiring at times. This! Can't we try to enjoy that the club has done better than most expected. That we've made super bargains in Tiote and HBA. Who would have thought that Carroll, williamson, colo and simpson would take pl with storm..?Or that we have more money to spend than we dared to dream of? MA has the whole summer to prove us wrong. Therefore I'll wait until next season before I eventually join the howling chorus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magorific Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Minhose: You're forgetting that Jonas gives Enrique probably the best protection in the league. That our left side is rock solid defensively is not all down to Enrique. Just as much credit should land on Jonas' shoulders. You are taking the p*ss, right? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Being hopelessly naive myself, I've got some sympathy for Punk's point. We have been through a lot of shit recently, but how many clubs' fans would say that? Hundreds I imagine. And at the end of the day we aren't much worse of on the pitch, if at all, and our team is not really much worse either, if at all. It does seem like some people only want to believe the worst will happen. I can understand why a bit, but it gets a bit tiring at times. It is naivety like. Tiote, Ben Arfa and Simpson are perfect examples of the Ashley way. Buy a player with potential for relatively low figure. See how the player performs. If well, protect the asset. Await big bid, reply by stating the asset is on a long term contract and only silly money will be accepted. Accept larger offer. There's no point in anybody getting particularly fond of a star player because they'll be off within a couple of years for more than they were bought for. The policy is a very good model - just not without it's risks - the key one being morale imho. Hence the talks with Nolan. Pardew will be arguing for a core of players to be here for the long term to ensure morale is ok and Nolan is key to this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 More money than we ever dreamt of? No football dream I've ever had involved money, believe me. I don't get excited by signings, by bargains, by low wages or good fees. All I could give a fuck about is Newcastle winning on any given day. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Being hopelessly naive myself, I've got some sympathy for Punk's point. We have been through a lot of shit recently, but how many clubs' fans would say that? Hundreds I imagine. And at the end of the day we aren't much worse of on the pitch, if at all, and our team is not really much worse either, if at all. It does seem like some people only want to believe the worst will happen. I can understand why a bit, but it gets a bit tiring at times. It is naivety like. Tiote, Ben Arfa and Simpson are perfect examples of the Ashley way. Buy a player with potential for relatively low figure. See how the player performs. If well, protect the asset. Await big bid, reply by stating the asset is on a long term contract and only silly money will be accepted. Accept larger offer. There's no point in anybody getting particularly fond of a star player because they'll be off within a couple of years for more than they were bought for. The policy is a very good model - just not without it's risks - the key one being morale imho. Hence the talks with Nolan. Pardew will be arguing for a core of players to be here for the long term to ensure morale is ok and Nolan is key to this. Nolan is the perfect Ashley player. Will score enough goals to help secure safety in the premier but still relatively cheap because no big club will want him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colocho Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 But he is on £40,000+ a week. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Being hopelessly naive myself, I've got some sympathy for Punk's point. We have been through a lot of shit recently, but how many clubs' fans would say that? Hundreds I imagine. And at the end of the day we aren't much worse of on the pitch, if at all, and our team is not really much worse either, if at all. It does seem like some people only want to believe the worst will happen. I can understand why a bit, but it gets a bit tiring at times. It is naivety like. Tiote, Ben Arfa and Simpson are perfect examples of the Ashley way. Buy a player with potential for relatively low figure. See how the player performs. If well, protect the asset. Await big bid, reply by stating the asset is on a long term contract and only silly money will be accepted. Accept larger offer. There's no point in anybody getting particularly fond of a star player because they'll be off within a couple of years for more than they were bought for. The policy is a very good model - just not without it's risks - the key one being morale imho. Hence the talks with Nolan. Pardew will be arguing for a core of players to be here for the long term to ensure morale is ok and Nolan is key to this. Nolan is the perfect Ashley player. Will score enough goals to help secure safety in the premier but still relatively cheap because no big club will want him. Not sure I agree with that tbh. He'll be at the top of the salary range and have little resale value. His value comes in keeping a squad together, morale ok etc. Compare his captaincy to say Owens. He'll be the hit Ashley is taking to keep rotating bodies in the squad to make some money.................collateral damage if you like. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punk77 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Minhosa: Why should he sell his biggest assets, unless they refuse to abide to the salary policy set? The only way he's capable of earning money is to establish the club in the top tier. Selling his best players will only lead to the club's value being reduced accordingly. And it's much easier for him to sell the club if it's full of solid players, if he wants that.. However, to earn money, he also needs to enforce the salary cap which by far is the biggest expense in a club. If the club isn't making money, he must take from his own pocket if he wants reinforcements..Would you have done that? When the club has a sound economy, it can also compete for the best talents. We will be able to outbid the likes of Villa and Everton. As long as a salary cap is enforced, it's viable to pay decent fees in order to acquire the best talents. Tham and Stoke are good examples of this. And as the squad gradually improves, together with results and income a greater wage tolerance will also be possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Nolan's even more perfect if it's Liverpool you're intending on selling your best players to, even better at convincing players to sign for them than Dalglish is. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colocho Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Nolan's even more perfect if it's Liverpool you're intending on selling your best players to, even better at convincing players to sign for them than Dalglish is. Wonder if he's telling Enrique just how much greater Liverpool are than us. By the way, there is hope. "£11.5m fullback linked to Liverpool." http://www.fansfc.com/story/31418.html Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Being hopelessly naive myself, I've got some sympathy for Punk's point. We have been through a lot of shit recently, but how many clubs' fans would say that? Hundreds I imagine. And at the end of the day we aren't much worse of on the pitch, if at all, and our team is not really much worse either, if at all. It does seem like some people only want to believe the worst will happen. I can understand why a bit, but it gets a bit tiring at times. It is naivety like. Tiote, Ben Arfa and Simpson are perfect examples of the Ashley way. Buy a player with potential for relatively low figure. See how the player performs. If well, protect the asset. Await big bid, reply by stating the asset is on a long term contract and only silly money will be accepted. Accept larger offer. There's no point in anybody getting particularly fond of a star player because they'll be off within a couple of years for more than they were bought for. The policy is a very good model - just not without it's risks - the key one being morale imho. Hence the talks with Nolan. Pardew will be arguing for a core of players to be here for the long term to ensure morale is ok and Nolan is key to this. Nolan is the perfect Ashley player. Will score enough goals to help secure safety in the premier but still relatively cheap because no big club will want him. Not sure I agree with that tbh. He'll be at the top of the salary range and have little resale value. His value comes in keeping a squad together, morale ok etc. Compare his captaincy to say Owens. His captaincy is great but Ashley isn't going to pay over the odds for that. Nolan will be paid what it takes to keep him, and with no big clubs interested it shouldn't be huge wages. Although Ashley might consider his goals worth paying a bit more for as we can form a cheap but effective style round players like Nolan. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Being hopelessly naive myself, I've got some sympathy for Punk's point. We have been through a lot of s*** recently, but how many clubs' fans would say that? Hundreds I imagine. And at the end of the day we aren't much worse of on the pitch, if at all, and our team is not really much worse either, if at all. It does seem like some people only want to believe the worst will happen. I can understand why a bit, but it gets a bit tiring at times. It is naivety like. Tiote, Ben Arfa and Simpson are perfect examples of the Ashley way. Buy a player with potential for relatively low figure. See how the player performs. If well, protect the asset. Await big bid, reply by stating the asset is on a long term contract and only silly money will be accepted. Accept larger offer. There's no point in anybody getting particularly fond of a star player because they'll be off within a couple of years for more than they were bought for. The policy is a very good model - just not without it's risks - the key one being morale imho. Hence the talks with Nolan. Pardew will be arguing for a core of players to be here for the long term to ensure morale is ok and Nolan is key to this. I'm trying to rack my brains, but Carroll aside, who else has been sold that was part of that Model? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Minhosa: Why should he sell his biggest assets, unless they refuse to abide to the salary policy set? The only way he's capable of earning money is to establish the club in the top tier. Selling his best players will only lead to the club's value being reduced accordingly. And it's much easier for him to sell the club if it's full of solid players, if he wants that.. However, to earn money, he also needs to enforce the salary cap which by far is the biggest expense in a club. If the club isn't making money, he must take from his own pocket if he wants reinforcements..Would you have done that? When the club has a sound economy, it can also compete for the best talents. We will be able to outbid the likes of Villa and Everton. As long as a salary cap is enforced, it's viable to pay decent fees in order to acquire the best talents. Tham and Stoke are good examples of this. And as the squad gradually improves, together with results and income a greater wage tolerance will also be possible. The club is still not self-sufficient. I would imagine he's lowering the wage bill, whilst generating additional capital through sales to stop having to shore the club up personally. When we get to that point perhaps he can move us forward or sell us. On the question of whether I would have the done the same (money from my own pocket) I wouldn't have bought the club in the first place tbh. How will the squad gradually improve when constant turnover of top players? Surely, eventually, something has to give? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colocho Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Not a relevant question tbh. The question you should be asking is who may be sold on the basis of that model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallace Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This Summer will surely show Ashley's true intentions once and for all. He is in the last chance saloon. Will he sell several of our better players and replace them with poorer ones? With the £35m+ received in transfer monies (assuming Jose goes), he has no excuses and failure to strengthen the squad will make it obvious to all supporters that he is not interested in improving the club in any way other than financially. At that point, I think a lot of fans who have given him the benefit of the doubt up till now, will decide enough is enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colocho Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This Summer will surely show Ashley's true intentions once and for all. He is in the last chance saloon. Will he sell several of our better players and replace them with poorer ones? With the £35m+ received in transfer monies (assuming Jose goes), he has no excuses and failure to strengthen the squad will make it obvious to all supporters that he is not interested in improving the club in any way other than financially. At that point, I think a lot of fans who have given him the benefit of the doubt up till now, will decide enough is enough. My thoughts exactly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Minhosa Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Not a relevant question tbh. The question you should be asking is who may be sold on the basis of that model. Well that and what were his intentions of buying Ben Arfa when he was injured, loaning a headfuck at minimal cost and securing Tiote by giving him more money. Why would he offer someone significantly more money for an extra years commitment? Protecting his value (Tiote) Grabbing a bargain (Ben Arfa & possibly Ireland) Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the principles of the model, more the fact the club aren't just up front about it. We are a feeder club now and the kids he'll buy in the summer, if they prove themselves by Xmas will be wrapped up in long term deals in order to sell to the highest bidder come next summer. All good as long as Carr isn't hit by a bus, the team morale doesn't dive bomb a la relegation year (hence Nolan imho) and the fans don't stop turning up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wallace Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Not a relevant question tbh. The question you should be asking is who may be sold on the basis of that model. Well that and what were his intentions of buying Ben Arfa when he was injured, loaning a headfuck at minimal cost and securing Tiote by giving him more money. Why would he offer someone significantly more money for an extra years commitment? Protecting his value (Tiote) Grabbing a bargain (Ben Arfa & possibly Ireland) Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the principles of the model, more the fact the club aren't just up front about it. We are a feeder club now and the kids he'll buy in the summer, if they prove themselves by Xmas will be wrapped up in long term deals in order to sell to the highest bidder come next summer. All good as long as Carr isn't hit by a bus, the team morale doesn't dive bomb a la relegation year (hence Nolan imho) and the fans don't stop turning up. My understanding is that Liverpool were sniffing around Ben Arfa so the club decide to push the deal through early rather than wait until the end of the season and risk losing him. Since they had agreed such a good price for him, once Ben Arfa signed that contract, they can almost certainly sell him for an immediate profit. I know he has a lot to prove after the injury but even now before he has played again, they would easily get more than £5m for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This Summer will surely show Ashley's true intentions once and for all. He is in the last chance saloon. Will he sell several of our better players and replace them with poorer ones? With the £35m+ received in transfer monies (assuming Jose goes), he has no excuses and failure to strengthen the squad will make it obvious to all supporters that he is not interested in improving the club in any way other than financially. At that point, I think a lot of fans who have given him the benefit of the doubt up till now, will decide enough is enough. there are two schools of thought amongst NUFC fans, one as posted above by wallace and the other that says mike ashley is the devil incarnate and he is somehow syphoning off any transfer profits into his own pocket. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conjo Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 Not a relevant question tbh. The question you should be asking is who may be sold on the basis of that model. Well that and what were his intentions of buying Ben Arfa when he was injured, loaning a headfuck at minimal cost and securing Tiote by giving him more money. Why would he offer someone significantly more money for an extra years commitment? Protecting his value (Tiote) Grabbing a bargain (Ben Arfa & possibly Ireland) Don't get me wrong, I'm not against the principles of the model, more the fact the club aren't just up front about it. We are a feeder club now and the kids he'll buy in the summer, if they prove themselves by Xmas will be wrapped up in long term deals in order to sell to the highest bidder come next summer. All good as long as Carr isn't hit by a bus, the team morale doesn't dive bomb a la relegation year (hence Nolan imho) and the fans don't stop turning up. My understanding is that Liverpool were sniffing around Ben Arfa so the club decide to push the deal through early rather than wait until the end of the season and risk losing him. Since they had agreed such a good price for him, once Ben Arfa signed that contract, they can almost certainly sell him for an immediate profit. I know he has a lot to prove after the injury but even now before he has played again, they would easily get more than £5m for him. Fucking Liverpool Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colocho Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This Summer will surely show Ashley's true intentions once and for all. He is in the last chance saloon. Will he sell several of our better players and replace them with poorer ones? With the £35m+ received in transfer monies (assuming Jose goes), he has no excuses and failure to strengthen the squad will make it obvious to all supporters that he is not interested in improving the club in any way other than financially. At that point, I think a lot of fans who have given him the benefit of the doubt up till now, will decide enough is enough. there are two schools of thought amongst NUFC fans, one as posted above by wallace and the other that says mike ashley is the devil incarnate and he is somehow syphoning off any transfer profits into his own pocket. Rubbish. There will still be Ashley sympathisers on this forum no matter the kind of players we bring in this summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This Summer will surely show Ashley's true intentions once and for all. He is in the last chance saloon. Will he sell several of our better players and replace them with poorer ones? With the £35m+ received in transfer monies (assuming Jose goes), he has no excuses and failure to strengthen the squad will make it obvious to all supporters that he is not interested in improving the club in any way other than financially. At that point, I think a lot of fans who have given him the benefit of the doubt up till now, will decide enough is enough. there are two schools of thought amongst NUFC fans, one as posted above by wallace and the other that says mike ashley is the devil incarnate and he is somehow syphoning off any transfer profits into his own pocket. Rubbish. There will still be Ashley sympathisers on this forum no matter the kind of players we bring in this summer. i'd doubt it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 This Summer will surely show Ashley's true intentions once and for all. He is in the last chance saloon. Will he sell several of our better players and replace them with poorer ones? With the £35m+ received in transfer monies (assuming Jose goes), he has no excuses and failure to strengthen the squad will make it obvious to all supporters that he is not interested in improving the club in any way other than financially. At that point, I think a lot of fans who have given him the benefit of the doubt up till now, will decide enough is enough. Yup you described my position perfectly Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
UV Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 I have confidence in Carr: he'll find a good replacement.. Hasn't he only been responsible for 1 signing for us so far, ie Tiote? One player isn't much to base any confidence on really. Here's how £45m+ was spent at Man City under Eriksson when Carr was chief scout : Benjani £3,870,000 Felipe Caicedo £5,200,000 Valeri Bojinov £5,750,000 Elano £8,000,000 Vedran Corluka £8,000,000 Javier Garrido £1,500,000 Martin Petrov £4,700,000 Geovanni Free Rolando Bianchi £8,800,000 and City signings pre-moneybags era from the rest of his time there (for an idea of how good he is at spotting cheap/unknown players who come good) : Season 06/07 Andreas Isaksson £2,000,000 Hatem Trabelsi Free Bernardo Corradi Signed Dietmar Hamann £400,000 Season 05/06 Ousmane Dabo Free Paul Dickov Free Joe Hart £1,500,000 Matthew Mills £250,000 Georgios Samaras £6,000,000 Darius Vassell £2,000,000 Andy Cole Free Season 04/05 Ronald Waterreus Free Danny Mills Free Inspiring? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punk77 Posted April 12, 2011 Share Posted April 12, 2011 How will the squad gradually improve when constant turnover of top players? Surely, eventually, something has to give? Constant turnover of top players? Isn't that to exaggerate a bit? Carroll's sale was the right thing to do. The deal was terrific. And Enrqiue wants to be sold. That's only two players. Together they have generated a whopping £50 mill. Used wisely, we could buy us a hell of a team that will be much stronger than a team consisting of Carroll and Enrique and mediocre recruitments. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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