Kevin Keegan

[oldtype]

7 hours ago, Mike said:

fwiw, Doris Burke is easily the best NBA commentator.

Doris is great, but if she ever calls a Celtics-Sixers series again I’m going to lose my shit.

[TheBrownBottle]

2 hours ago, Coffee_Johnny said:

The basic point he made, as far as I can tell, was that he personally doesn’t like listening to female ex-players talking about the English men’s team. Because they haven’t had the same experience as the players they are commenting on. Whilst ill-considered to express it in our current culture, I don’t see how you can call his preference ‘dumb’.

Beyond the dated language, I also don’t personally think it is sexist. It is more the relative experience, because of their gender, of the individuals he is talking about which he sees as less preferable.
 

It is possibly a throw back to the ex-pros originally being wheeled-out to add authenticity to the conversations about events in a match. Personally, it is more the insight shared in the analysis, or the personable or humorous way it is shared, which matters to me, not the level the person’s experience or gender. I don’t think less of someone for having different criteria/preferences. It is just, sadly, stupid to say anything that could be perceived as non-PC these days. 

 

 

 

 

More than that, he’s specifically talking about women ex-players talking about their experience as if it directly correlates with the men’s.

 

I’m absolutely all for female voices in the punditocracy - I mean, I’ve heard Souness et al.  There’s nothing to suggest that a female pundit would understand the game less, nor would be any less observant.  It is only when it becomes ‘when I played for England’ as if it is exactly the same pressure levels etc.  It simply isn’t the case - the mens game gets far more attention, scrutiny and criticism.
 

I’m ok with people arguing this point with me on here, though I note that in this forum every single NUFC mens match and player has their own thread, yet NUFC women has one ‘catch-all’ thread, with none on individual players or matches …

[madras]

12 hours ago, NUFC_Chris said:

He’s entitled to his opinion without people getting so upset about it, or it being even remotely considered controversial. 

Female pundits have not lived the same experience as the top level men when offering opinions on men’s football. The same could be said for men commenting on the women’s game. 

And when you listen to many of the blokes who played at that level they talk utter shit about the game. Phil Thompson, Souness, Sutton ,Savage, Le tiss, Merson etc.Good anecdotes but tactically etc, utter crap.

 

I think it's about novelty, once the novelty wears off you hear what's being said not who says it. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by madras

[Begbie]

Its like people say above. Even if you have played on the highest level of football it doesnt mean you know much about football. 

Imo you dont even have to have played football on elite level, as long as you are entertaining and know your shit. I rather listen to that guy than an ex pro who is utter crap. Its like we say about young players. if you are good enough you are old enough, same goes for pundits for me, if they are good enough it doesnt matter which sex you are. 

[Wullie]

6 hours ago, Chris_R said:

 

Why not say "I don't like unqualified pundits" then? But he chose to say that he doesn't like women pundits.

 

In the first instance, he chose to make it about their gender, not their qualifications.

 

I love the man as much as any, but those comments are terrible.

 

I suspect he was asked a question about it, such is the nature of these events.

[Chris_R]

3 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

I suspect he was asked a question about it, such is the nature of these events.

Well then you answer a bit smarter.

 

"Do you like women pundits?

 

"I want good pundits who have played the game to the highest level so they can provide the best analysis, and apart from that it doesn't matter to me"

 

It isn't difficult. Unless actually, you just don't want women doing it.

[Coffee_Johnny]

3 hours ago, madras said:

And when you listen to many of the blokes who played at that level they talk utter shit about the game. Phil Thompson, Souness, Sutton ,Savage, Le tiss, Merson etc.Good anecdotes but tactically etc, utter crap.

 

I think it's about novelty, once the novelty wears off you hear what's being said not who says it. 

 

 

 

Spot on.

[RUHRLYASLEEVESUP]

Biffa Bacon wouldn't of stood for all this namby pamby woke tripe, that I do know, been burst beaks all over the gaff

[St. Maximin]

I don’t agree with Keegan but as others have said it’s not helped by the way he’s said it and it’s likely a response to a question. He could probably have said the reverse for women’s football too if that helps. His opinions shouldn’t change our opinion of him or many other people for that matter. People who come from a different generation see the world differently, whether we like it or not, which won’t necessarily make them stupid or bad people. 
 

What’s all this about preferring male commentators to female commentators being misogynistic though? It’s one thing to say they shouldn’t be allowed to or will automatically be worse because they’re women, but I’d wager most people here would put few, if any, women as their favourite commentators? That’s not to say things might not change over time. 

 

 

Edited October 6, 2023 by St. Maximin

[Coffee_Johnny]

30 minutes ago, RUHRLYASLEEVESUP said:

Biffa Bacon wouldn't of stood for all this namby pamby woke tripe, that I do know, been burst beaks all over the gaff

All this serious talk of sexism makes me think we need a laugh:

 

[BlueStar]

Wait, wait, let's get the opinion of the guy who stubbed out a cigar in someone's eye

 

 

[TheBrownBottle]

It has to be said, of all the places to worry about lack of representation in the workplace, the art of talking complete and utter bollocks re twenty two men kicking a ball about strikes me as the least important of all.

[Wullie]

1 hour ago, Chris_R said:

Well then you answer a bit smarter.

 

"Do you like women pundits?

 

"I want good pundits who have played the game to the highest level so they can provide the best analysis, and apart from that it doesn't matter to me"

 

It isn't difficult. Unless actually, you just don't want women doing it.

 

When you say "answer a bit smarter", what you mean is that instead of offering his incredibly milquetoast opinion that women's international football and men's international football isn't particularly analogous, he should instead answer like a politician and essentially ignore the question in case someone goes on the internet and tells the teacher on him, even though several hundred people in Bristol have paid £40 a ticket to hear his genuine thoughts on a range of things.

[Anderson]

30 minutes ago, BlueStar said:

Wait, wait, let's get the opinion of the guy who stubbed out a cigar in someone's eye

 

 

If I was going to list his achievements, I’d probably not go for England manager in his case.  

[Dr.Spaceman]

Personally I think it's degrading to have designated women's spots on certain shows. It creates that false narrative in the minds of the shouty baldies that ALL women are only on those shows because they need a designated woman front and centre. So when you have the likes of Gabby Logan, Emma Hayes etc speaking complete sense about the mens game their Fosters/Carling/Stella-soaked brains cannot stand it.

 

We need to stop labelling people and just crack on. Surely we're at the stage now where the intelligent & educated among the media will rise to the top without the need for shortcuts.

[TRon]

12 hours ago, Super Duper Branko Strupar said:

 

He did, but just because they haven't played in Men's competition doesn't mean their analysis isn't valid. They have experience being in that position against an opposition, its not wild that they might have a relevant opinion on any moment or action.

I love KK but he has a bit of an antiquated view on the matter going off those few lines. But he is 72, so... Not going to change my opinion of him though.

And to an earlier point, not yours btw, about it not being a solution to any problem. It absolutely is, its solves the problem of women not being afforded equal status in a specific role. It solves the problem of women being separated and being seen as less worthy. Which is a problem. You cant accept Andy fucking Hinchcliffe getting commentating gigs and bemoan an England womens internationals getting them. 

 

Precisely. He's 72, things have changed a lot since his time, not all of them for the better, but without getting into deep philosophical or political arguments, it's hard to deny that the likes of Matt le Tiss or Tim Sherwood offer better insight than Alex Scott. She's got far more insight than half a dozen male pundits.

 

One thing which does piss me off though is when there's no distinction made when reporting games, either on TV or digital media. The amount of times I've seen Chelsea 2 Spurs 7 flash up on the screen and thought WTF? Just stick WSL in front of it so I don't think I'm getting a Premier league result.

[TheGuv]

Just now, TRon said:

 

Precisely. He's 72, things have changed a lot since his time, not all of them for the better, but without getting into deep philosophical or political arguments, it's hard to deny that the likes of Matt le Tiss or Tim Sherwood offer better insight than Alex Scott. She's got far more insight than half a dozen male pundits.

 

One thing which does piss me off though is when there's no distinction made when reporting games, either on TV or digital media. The amount of times I've seen Chelsea 2 Spurs 7 flash up on the screen and thought WTF? Just stick WSL in front of it so I don't think I'm getting a Premier league result.

My personal favourite is when WSL results are displayed before Championship and EFL results on the sky sports app. 
 

 

[Dr Jinx]

He's not wrong in his comments but he should know better how that would have been taken up.

 

It's an equality of outcome thing as opposed to equality of opportunity. Every pundit panel must contain a woman regardless if she has the personality of a turnip, or she has to be the presenter.

[TheGuv]

3 minutes ago, TheGuv said:

My personal favourite is when WSL results are displayed before Championship and EFL results on the sky sports app. 
 

 

Example from yesterday. Sorry like, but it’s madness.

 

 

[Dr Jinx]

I also think for the most part, that women are not funny / lack a sense of humour / make absolutely shit stand up comedians. Prove me wrong.

[TRon]

6 minutes ago, Dr Jinx said:

I also think for the most part, that women are not funny / lack a sense of humour / make absolutely shit stand up comedians. Prove me wrong.

 

 

[gbandit]

Oh dear, things have taken a turn 

[Kid Icarus]

Had no idea it was this bad on here tbh

[Fezzle]

Theres obviously a place for good female pundits, less keen on commentators mind but when you see 2/3 and one male in the studio it does take it a bit far and does wind up people rightly or wrongly. I mean i have an irrational hatred of Carney but that doesnt mean other women cant bring decent debate to the match, particularly as my hatred of male pundits is far worse(Owen, Ferdinand, Richards, Murphy, Savage etc)

In terms of presenters i couldnt care less who it is as long as they do it well and ask the right questions, more Woods less that smug bloke in suit and trainers please. That said i generally turn the sound off if watching a match at home and often in the pub if its a non NUFC match i rarely take any notice of what they say anyway. It is amusing seeing a lot of lads in the pub kicking off over it mind

[Chris_R]

35 minutes ago, Wullie said:

 

When you say "answer a bit smarter", what you mean is that instead of offering his incredibly milquetoast opinion that women's international football and men's international football isn't particularly analogous, he should instead answer like a politician and essentially ignore the question in case someone goes on the internet and tells the teacher on him, even though several hundred people in Bristol have paid £40 a ticket to hear his genuine thoughts on a range of things.

 

I said he should have given a more careful view, but that was on the basis that what he's said isn't representative of how he actually feels.

 

If he really just doesn't want women commentating or doing analysis, he's absolutely within his rights to say as much. But as I said earlier, free speech isn't freedom from the consequences of that speech, so he can and should be held to account for saying such things. Which is what's happening in this thread.