West Ham 2 - 2 Newcastle United - 26/4/08 - Post match reaction from page 16

[Yorkie]

Why do people keep saying stuff about Martins re: 'he won't improve this', 'he won't improve that'. Why the fuck not?

 

Martins' touch and movement has already improved this season. And i said that even before Keegan came in. The goals against Spurs and Man City early on were evidence of that. Obviously, the Keegan approach has been a springboard and he's improved even further.

 

He's 23 ffs and has a lot of talent. It was like what Sniffer said the other day; "oh, he might get you the odd spectacular goal or two, but blah blah blah"... what a load of tosh.

 

I know, Bobyule, you didn't say "he won't improve", like i am implying... but there's no reason to suggest a player like him, at his age, cannot be great at anything imo. Not from what i've seen so far.

[madras]

Oba's first touch might improve, but it's never going to be great. By the law of averages, now and then the ball is going to land where he wants it to, and he's going to look good, but he's not going to be consistent.

 

 

his first touch recieving the ball to his front is often poor but i've yet to see someone recieve the ball over his shoulder (yesterday,citeh etc) so well. with his speed it should be used more. his own movement has so far stopped this but hopefully with a more settled team pattern it may come together.

[merlin]

A typical end-of-season match with nothing at stake but pride ; Midfield performed poorly, Geremi, despite his goal, was very poor, possession given away regularly and he is often dispossessed by opposition players because he is so slow to pass..

Barton not as good as in the past few games and we missed Faye at the back although Edgar did OK - excellent save from Harper in second half denied WH 3 points and they were the better side for much of the game ; well-taken goal by Martins, another reasonable performance from Enrique who looks a solid defender ; even Ronaldo didn't get much change out of him at OT, and he is very adept at judging his tackles - doesn't dive in..

 

Looking forward to season's end now..

[Optimistic Nut]

People still criticising Martins' touch and movement?

 

Impeccable there. Quality goal.

 

As soon as Barton picked up the ball in the middle of the park, Martins went from dawdling back up the pitch to turning and sprinting away, in the blink of an eye. He'd gained a couple of yards on the defender before Barton had even played it*, simply due to his accelleration. Finish was f****** sexy n'all.

 

Can't wait for Keegan to really sort this guy out. The guy's quality.

 

 

 

*Superb pass, btw. Perfectly weighted.

first touch great second (the one which bounced off his shin)not so good. to be fair his control when the ball is coming over his shoulder so to speak is exceptional. his control when the ball is trundling towards him leaves a lot to be desired. also take a close look in that he's gets lucky bounces and such...todays second touch that wasn't deliberate and tho extra non-deliberate touch in his goal at spuds.

 

They're not lucky bounces, he just recovers from them quickly.

aye but i call it lucky if you hit the ball when you don't mean to and profit from it

 

Was similar to the goal against Spurs recently. Excellent first touch, dodgy second one, but his feet are quick enough to react quicker than the defenders.

[Cronky]

Why do people keep saying stuff about Martins re: 'he won't improve this', 'he won't improve that'. Why the fuck not?

 

Martins' touch and movement has already improved this season. And i said that even before Keegan came in. The goals against Spurs and Man City early on were evidence of that. Obviously, the Keegan approach has been a springboard and he's improved even further.

 

He's 23 ffs and has a lot of talent. It was like what Sniffer said the other day; "oh, he might get you the odd spectacular goal or two, but blah blah blah"... what a load of tosh.

 

I know, Bobyule, you didn't say "he won't improve", like i am implying... but there's no reason to suggest a player like him, at his age, cannot be great at anything imo. Not from what i've seen so far.

 

I guess it's a judgement on the sort of player he is. He's an exceptionally good athlete, whose pace and strength is always going to be a problem for defenders, and now and then he'll get you a goal that other players wouldn't. It's also a big asset to us that he can chase down long balls that most players wouldn't get near.

 

I don't know the bio-mechanics of it, but a lot of powerful athletes of his type don't also possess the delicate football skills that you'd wish to see. There are exceptions, but he's not one of them. Every player's technique will improve with practice and experience, but we can't expect too much of him in that area.

[Unbelievable]

As he gets better and proves his critics wrong, we are now at the point where he apparently misses "the delicate football skills that you'd wish to see".. I'd be interested in knowing what those are. The way I see it he may not be or ever become world class, but he's certainly one of our more exciting players and seems happy to be here. If there was anything I'd want to fix about our attack right now it would be get a younger, more eager and more mobile replacement in for Viduka.

[Pilko]

Give Martins a few extra training sessions with Shearer, on how to finish and stay onside etc.

I know the day after his testimonial was really the day we should 'end the era' so to speak but I reckon it would do Oba the world of good.

[Optimistic Nut]

Martins will never be perfect, but if he was, he wouldn't be here. Think it was Alex made a cracking point about Robert recently and think it describes Martins well as well. It's his little weaknesses that make him a £10m Newcastle player, rather than a £25m Real Madrid, Barcelona, etc. player. If he didn't have the little flaws he has in his game, no way would he be here.

 

I'm one of his biggest critics, but you take him at face value and see he does bring a lot to the side. Obviously if in 2-3 years down the line we're in a position to go out and sign a more polished £18m-20m version of him then great.

[Dave]

No idea why every fucker wants to dwell on what any of our players can't do. Sure they're not perfect, but who is? Let's embrace what they can do ffs.

[Cronky]

No idea why every fucker wants to dwell on what any of our players can't do. Sure they're not perfect, but who is? Let's embrace what they can do ffs.

 

Well personally, that's what I was doing. What I'm finding here is that if you give a balanced picture of Martins, others are only picking on the reservations that you've expressed, and not the positive bits.

 

The guy has done better than I was expecting this last few weeks. Our attack looked pretty toothless without him, and we now look like scoring goals, however ragged we look in other areas.

 

All the focus has been on Owen and his new role, but I'm still not convinced. I'm only going by the 60 minute Sky highlights, but he looked pretty anonymous yesterday, and he didn't produce much the week before. Opposing managers will now be devising plans to keep him quiet, and that's a fresh challenge.

[Wullie]

Anyone have any idea about the last time we went four unbeaten away from home? Bet it's a good few years.

[Wullie]

KK:

 

I don't have a preference who wins the title.  The best team usually win — except the time when we lost it. That time the best team came second.

 

[Baggio]

Anyone have any idea about the last time we went four unbeaten away from home? Bet it's a good few years.

 

Wolves, Charlton, Leicester and Man Utd off the top of my head.

[Wullie]

Anyone have any idea about the last time we went four unbeaten away from home? Bet it's a good few years.

 

Wolves, Charlton, Leicester and Man Utd off the top of my head.

 

Good shout. Just had a look, just taking league games, that was actually a seven game unbeaten away run. How I long for the days when we weren't desperately inept away from home, things are looking up for the time being anyway (not sure we'll get anything at Goodison like).

 

I was at most of those games too. Darren Ambrose's equaliser on Boxing Day.

[Mick]

KK:

 

I don't have a preference who wins the title.  The best team usually win — except the time when we lost it. That time the best team came second.

 

 

Keegan has changed since we started to win games.  He seemed very quiet and looked if he had the weight of the world on his shoulders but recently he's been back to his best.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the years after leaving us have done to him.  I think he has a lot more about him now but he's still got something inside telling him that we can score more than the opposition.

 

We've got interesting times ahead and it's been a long time since I felt that way.

 

[merlin]

Oba's first touch might improve, but it's never going to be great. By the law of averages, now and then the ball is going to land where he wants it to, and he's going to look good, but he's not going to be consistent.

 

 

 

Agree with this - main asset pace but no way can he be compared to the likes of Henry etc.

[Ronaldo]

Oba's first touch might improve, but it's never going to be great. By the law of averages, now and then the ball is going to land where he wants it to, and he's going to look good, but he's not going to be consistent.

 

 

 

Agree with this - main asset pace but no way can he be compared to the likes of Henry etc.

 

23 year old Henry can be compared to the 23 year old Martins tbf. That said i'm not suggesting Martins will ever be as good as a peak Henry

[merlin]

KK:

 

I don't have a preference who wins the title.  The best team usually win — except the time when we lost it. That time the best team came second.

 

 

Keegan has changed since we started to win games.  He seemed very quiet and looked if he had the weight of the world on his shoulders but recently he's been back to his best.

 

It'll be interesting to see what the years after leaving us have done to him.  I think he has a lot more about him now but he's still got something inside telling him that we can score more than the opposition.

 

We've got interesting times ahead and it's been a long time since I felt that way.

 

 

This is a good point Mick - I have noticed that too.

I reckon KK HAS changed slightly since he was last here, and not for the worse - sure, he's older and maybe slightly less exuberant, but that has been tempered by his more calculating and realistic assessment of where the club is, and what the side needs to progress in today's game.

 

Given a bit of luck on the Transfer market, I reckon he will build a side which, if not quite as spectacular as the 95/96 one, will prove to be more suited to long-term success.

 

Yes, interesting times lie ahead, and I feel that we may just get a surprise on the lines of 93/94 when we would all have accepted a Top 7 finish before the season started, and ended up doing much better by finishing 3rd....getting to 5th or 6th would be the equal of that next season.

[Guest rebel_yell12]

No idea why every fucker wants to dwell on what any of our players can't do. Sure they're not perfect, but who is? Let's embrace what they can do ffs.

 

Well personally, that's what I was doing. What I'm finding here is that if you give a balanced picture of Martins, others are only picking on the reservations that you've expressed, and not the positive bits.

 

The guy has done better than I was expecting this last few weeks. Our attack looked pretty toothless without him, and we now look like scoring goals, however ragged we look in other areas.

 

All the focus has been on Owen and his new role, but I'm still not convinced. I'm only going by the 60 minute Sky highlights, but he looked pretty anonymous yesterday, and he didn't produce much the week before. Opposing managers will now be devising plans to keep him quiet, and that's a fresh challenge.

 

In my opinion, the focus has quite rightly been on Owen and his new role -- it's been a major turning point, and let's be honest, as both captain and the far-and-away most prestigious player Newcastle have got, he's going to be the "main man" when it comes to coverage of the club.  Plus, it was probably the most surprising aspect of the change in form, so it got the attention.  6 goals in 7 matches is nothing to snigger at, either.  Fair enough he was fairly anonymous v. West Ham, he was bound to have a quiet match at some point, just as Martins did the week before.  But to say "he didn't produce much the week before" seems a bit...ludicrous.  Merely two goals and a helluva lot of build-up play, won every MOTM I saw, essentially delivering the win in the derby match.  No, he wasn't great v. West Ham, but aside from Martins who looked particularly good?  It was an off day, away from home, and the lads still managed a draw.  Not a bad result, imo.

 

Never mind, I forgot to whom I was speaking (or posting...whatever).  Owen sucks, blah, blah, blah....  Gotta give you credit, though, you're consistent.  Not one of those who switches opinions with the tide of the masses.

[Cronky]

No idea why every fucker wants to dwell on what any of our players can't do. Sure they're not perfect, but who is? Let's embrace what they can do ffs.

 

Well personally, that's what I was doing. What I'm finding here is that if you give a balanced picture of Martins, others are only picking on the reservations that you've expressed, and not the positive bits.

 

The guy has done better than I was expecting this last few weeks. Our attack looked pretty toothless without him, and we now look like scoring goals, however ragged we look in other areas.

 

All the focus has been on Owen and his new role, but I'm still not convinced. I'm only going by the 60 minute Sky highlights, but he looked pretty anonymous yesterday, and he didn't produce much the week before. Opposing managers will now be devising plans to keep him quiet, and that's a fresh challenge.

 

In my opinion, the focus has quite rightly been on Owen and his new role -- it's been a major turning point, and let's be honest, as both captain and the far-and-away most prestigious player Newcastle have got, he's going to be the "main man" when it comes to coverage of the club.  Plus, it was probably the most surprising aspect of the change in form, so it got the attention.  6 goals in 7 matches is nothing to snigger at, either.  Fair enough he was fairly anonymous v. West Ham, he was bound to have a quiet match at some point, just as Martins did the week before.  But to say "he didn't produce much the week before" seems a bit...ludicrous.  Merely two goals and a helluva lot of build-up play, won every MOTM I saw, essentially delivering the win in the derby match.  No, he wasn't great v. West Ham, but aside from Martins who looked particularly good?  It was an off day, away from home, and the lads still managed a draw.  Not a bad result, imo.

 

Never mind, I forgot to whom I was speaking (or posting...whatever).  Owen sucks, blah, blah, blah....  Gotta give you credit, though, you're consistent.  Not one of those who switches opinions with the tide of the masses.

 

Well let me put it another way. The new formation, and the new role for Owen, has got us out of the mess we were in. Owen has been able to score by making runs from deep, and that's been an asset. However, as I said, other teams are going to get wise to that.

 

What bothers me is that Owen is not a particularly good passer of the ball, and if we're looking to progess from where we are now, I don't think Owen should be an automatic choice. I don't want a situation where we're trying to fit the team around one player, rather than trying to get the best out of all eleven. All this exaggerated praise that comes Owen's way does worry me for the future.

 

I'm not saying he's a bad player. Just not as good as his reputation suggests.

[bulivye]

how did edgar injure his head?

[Guest GAMMELL]

how did edgar injure his head?

 

Collision in the air with Carlton Cole

[Guest rebel_yell12]

No idea why every fucker wants to dwell on what any of our players can't do. Sure they're not perfect, but who is? Let's embrace what they can do ffs.

 

Well personally, that's what I was doing. What I'm finding here is that if you give a balanced picture of Martins, others are only picking on the reservations that you've expressed, and not the positive bits.

 

The guy has done better than I was expecting this last few weeks. Our attack looked pretty toothless without him, and we now look like scoring goals, however ragged we look in other areas.

 

All the focus has been on Owen and his new role, but I'm still not convinced. I'm only going by the 60 minute Sky highlights, but he looked pretty anonymous yesterday, and he didn't produce much the week before. Opposing managers will now be devising plans to keep him quiet, and that's a fresh challenge.

 

In my opinion, the focus has quite rightly been on Owen and his new role -- it's been a major turning point, and let's be honest, as both captain and the far-and-away most prestigious player Newcastle have got, he's going to be the "main man" when it comes to coverage of the club.  Plus, it was probably the most surprising aspect of the change in form, so it got the attention.  6 goals in 7 matches is nothing to snigger at, either.  Fair enough he was fairly anonymous v. West Ham, he was bound to have a quiet match at some point, just as Martins did the week before.  But to say "he didn't produce much the week before" seems a bit...ludicrous.  Merely two goals and a helluva lot of build-up play, won every MOTM I saw, essentially delivering the win in the derby match.  No, he wasn't great v. West Ham, but aside from Martins who looked particularly good?  It was an off day, away from home, and the lads still managed a draw.  Not a bad result, imo.

 

Never mind, I forgot to whom I was speaking (or posting...whatever).  Owen sucks, blah, blah, blah....  Gotta give you credit, though, you're consistent.  Not one of those who switches opinions with the tide of the masses.

 

Well let me put it another way. The new formation, and the new role for Owen, has got us out of the mess we were in. Owen has been able to score by making runs from deep, and that's been an asset. However, as I said, other teams are going to get wise to that.

 

What bothers me is that Owen is not a particularly good passer of the ball, and if we're looking to progess from where we are now, I don't think Owen should be an automatic choice. I don't want a situation where we're trying to fit the team around one player, rather than trying to get the best out of all eleven. All this exaggerated praise that comes Owen's way does worry me for the future.

 

I'm not saying he's a bad player. Just not as good as his reputation suggests.

 

This is where we must agree to disagree.  Owen's passing has been rather good, imo, not always particularly adventurous, but he's got good vision and he's efficient on the ball.  There have been a few of his passes that if it were one of the regular midfielders putting them through they'd be pointed out as a great pass and evidence of that player's class (one particular perfectly weighted pass to Martins last week springs immediately to mind).  In general, I find his link play to be far better than the other three strikers, which makes him vital to the new formation as there's no one to take his place (I've seen no evidence that Owen is too slow to play in Martins' place, if the situations were reversed).  Martins had a good game v. West Ham, and I look forward to more of the same -- if it comes.  But Martins has never been as consistent as Owen (even when Owen was the same age Martins is now), so I prefer to "pin my hopes" so to speak on Owen.  But I think the current system which uses both well ought to dispel the myth that for one to prosper, the other must wither. 

 

I think Owen's recent display of versatility has proven he is as good as his reputation suggests, maybe better.  His reputation was of a one-dimensional but very gifted striker.  Turns out he's not so one-dimensional.  And considering he still gets goals like v. Reading and the first v. Sunderland, I don't think his time as a striker playing on the shoulder are over either.  That was a classic sort of Owen goal, both times. 

[SteveMc]

Owen's passing has been exemplary. Agree with all of the post above

[Guest elpapi]

If a team is able to keep owen quiet then the other two... well mostly one at the moment (martins) will get more freedom... We really need a target man who can lead the line on his own and weighs on a defence, leaving even more space for owen, martins and upcoming midfielders... I fail to see what viduka is adding to the team right now, he doesn't move and even his holding up is rather poor (as most balls are at head-height and he doesn't even jump for it)