Looks like Shay is on his way

[Guest Phil K]

Well, Shay's been loyal and got f*** all back for it - he knows how we bleed - I don't blame him one bit.

I thank him for what he's done and loyalty shown but....he can walk away, we can't.

[NE5]

Fans are putting Ashley back in the dock

 

Jan 3 2009 by Mark Douglas, The Journal

 

Shay Given’s statement of intent on Thursday night was the worst possible way for Newcastle to enter a crucial month. Mark Douglas reports.

 

IT is possible to plot the demise of Mike Ashley’s credibility in the eyes of Newcastle United supporters through his derisory performances in the transfer window.

 

While he arrived too late to have any impact in the summer of 2007, Ashley’s hesitation 12 months ago when the newly-installed Kevin Keegan was desperate to add to his squad provided the first evidence of flaws.

 

The summer of 2008 was the nadir. Money was spent but offset by the sales of James Milner and Emre, and the unholy mess created by the Ashley- inspired power structure paved the way for a frustrated Keegan to walk out and bring the club to its knees.

 

Now, the need for Newcastle’s owner to dig deep is pressing – not just to restore his reputation now that he is in it for the long haul again but for the small matter of keeping United in the Premier League.

 

Joe Kinnear has illustrated through his adept handling of United at full-strength that they are capable of finishing just above mid-table when fully staffed, but the pitiful performance and embarrassing result against Liverpool served as a warning of what happens when resources are stretched.

 

Newcastle need at least five new players of Premier League quality simply to survive and that will require a personal cash injection of around £20m before taking into account any cash raised by sales.

 

Yet a clearly harassed Kinnear dropped the first hints yesterday that a substantial amount will have to be raised by player sales. Asked whether he was now aware of the amount of money that he would be given to spend in January, the Newcastle manager took a long pause before looking at a press officer sat to his left.

 

"I am aware what we have offered for players," he eventually answered. "There are certain players I am trying to sell at the moment, so a lot will depend on how much I get back for that. Those players cost decent money.

 

"Will there be surprise exits? I would not have thought so. None of the big boys but maybe other players who have come in to the value of £16m for three of them.

 

"That's in Dennis Wise's quarters now. He is the one wheeling and dealing, he is the one selling them. We're trying to get funds back in and he is aware of the players I want. We are talking to a lot of clubs at the moment."

 

That is not the bullish declaration that we have become used to from Kinnear when talking about cash.

 

It could be a double bluff to drive down the asking prices of their targets but such tactics rarely work, and Kinnear is too indiscreet to follow through with it.

 

Just as worrying is the prospect of losing Shay Given and Michael Owen, Newcastle’s two most important players. Kinnear is adamant neither will leave this month, but his unequivocal assurance that the Ireland goalkeeper will be staying was undermined when he admitted that if Ashley sanctioned the transfer of Given he would be powerless to stop it.

 

From a business perspective, there would be logic behind selling Given. £8million for a 32-year-old is a good return and with Steve Harper ready to step into the breach.

 

But Kinnear is a football man, and he is astute enough to know the damage done to the club by the departure of Given would not be mitigated by millions in the bank. As well as being one of the best goalkeepers in the top flight, Given is part of the fabric of the club – supremely popular with supporters and a calm and collected authority in the dressing room.

 

Combined with the crippling injury list that has made today’s FA Cup tie with Hull one to be endured rather than enjoyed, it is the worst possible start to a crucial month.

 

Kinnear’s reflex reaction when confronted with problems is to come out fighting and he was true to form in a combative Press conference yesterday lunch-time. Football journalists bore the brunt of his frustration but Given’s representative, the highly-respected lawyer Michael Kennedy, was not immune either.

 

Kinnear cast doubt on Kennedy’s claims that Given was unhappy ("I don’t have an unhappy player on my hands") and even went as far as to question his authority in acting on behalf of his goalkeeper – claims robustly denied from Ireland a few hours later.

 

It all adds up to more confusion at St James’s Park, where a follow-up statement from Ashley is sorely required to silence some of the doubts. The contradictory nature of Kinnear’s public statements is hardly helping, but at least he is robust in his insistence to Ashley and the club’s power brokers that investment must be made.

 

"I have explained the seriousness of situation to Mike Ashley, yeah," he said in his parting shot before boarding the team bus.

 

So the transfer window again becomes a crucial examination of Ashley’s intentions. Allow Given to leave, and don’t provide a substantial transfer budget for Kinnear to rescue United’s season, and Newcastle’s owner has again failed the test. The consequences of that would be unthinkable.

 

seems like someone has been reading my posts ............

 

This one for the Ashley apologists

 

 

[buzza]

I also think that if we got 8 million for shay it wouldn-t be a bad deal. We have steve harper who is as good as the secoind tier of goalkeepers in this league.

It is a damning statement when one of our longest serving and quite loyal players decides to call it a day, he knows we are going nowhere with ashley at the helm.

Happy days ...

[NE5]

I also think that if we got 8 million for shay it wouldn-t be a bad deal. We have steve harper who is as good as the secoind tier of goalkeepers in this league.

It is a damning statement when one of our longest serving and quite loyal players decides to call it a day, he knows we are going nowhere with ashley at the helm.

Happy days ...

 

its part of the "plan", ie putting a promotion challenging team together.

 

 

[lovejoy]

"Will there be surprise exits? I would not have thought so. None of the big boys but maybe other players who have come in to the value of £16m for three of them''

 

howay then, who is he talking about?

[SUPERTOON]

"Will there be surprise exits? I would not have thought so. None of the big boys but maybe other players who have come in to the value of £16m for three of them''

 

howay then, who is he talking about?

 

Assuming he is telling the truth, i would guess- Enrique,Xisco and Geremi.

 

I wouldnt sell Enrique but if we were to get 16 million for the three it would be pretty good business.

[Dokko]

£6m for Enrique?

 

£6m for Xisco?

 

£4m for Geremi?

 

Wow, that's ambitious.

 

I'd take it as well.

 

I'd also take this £9m for Owen banded about and anything over £10m for Given, while selling Zoggy for £8m+

 

Shame it leaves us with Duff, Viduka, Butt & Cacapa oh and Ameobi, all which need selling as well.

 

Just get rid of the lot and start again. 

[Dave]

I'm not sure what Kinnear's actually saying there. Does he mean three players we paid £16m for?

 

Because aside from Owen, Given and Coloccini I'm not sure we have anyone in the squad would could raise that kind of money.

[Mick]

 

Assuming he is telling the truth, i would guess- Enrique,Xisco and Geremi.

 

I wouldnt sell Enrique but if we were to get 16 million for the three it would be pretty good business.

 

I'm sure he said the players cost £16 million, yesterday he hoped to bring in £6 million for them.

[Baggio]

The idea of him playing for Tottenham makes my blood boil. Hopefully not.

 

people like you are going to have to get used to the idea that clubs like Spurs think bigger, act bigger than we do.

 

This is why Gazza and Waddle went there for that reason, despite what other people that say they are long term supporters will tell you.

 

The blip of the Halls and Shepherd, where we correctly punched our weight above clubs like this, is well and truly over.

 

 

 

Gazza, Waddle, Jenas....

 

:colo:

 

you're a fool if you seriously think the sale of Jeanarse and the circmstances of it compares to those of Waddle and Gazza.

 

 

 

Jenas left here because he thought he'd "hit a ceiling" and wanted to move on because Spurs were on the way up.

 

You can try and write it off and say he doesn't count but he clearly does.

[lovejoy]

I'm not sure what Kinnear's actually saying there. Does he mean three players we paid £16m for?

 

Because aside from Owen, Given and Coloccini I'm not sure we have anyone in the squad would could raise that kind of money.

 

thats how i read it, which rules out geremi.

[Leazes1986]

N'Zogbia, Enrique and Xisco?

[gray]

Shay isnt going to leave us to go somewhere like Spurs or City. From one laughing stock to another in that case.

[johnnypd]

N'Zogbia, Enrique and Xisco?

 

Enrique and Xisco would easily generate £10m iyam, especially since they'd be likely to go back to spain and there is now euro-pound parity. the other player might be n'zogbia but i'd prefer it be Smith.

[steve_69]

N'Zogbia, Enrique and Xisco?

 

Enrique and Xisco would easily generate £10m iyam, especially since they'd be likely to go back to spain and there is now euro-pound parity. the other player might be n'zogbia but i'd prefer it be Smith.

 

Barton?

Difficult to shift an injured player but it's been made pretty clear that he isn't Ashley's favourite

[NE5]

The idea of him playing for Tottenham makes my blood boil. Hopefully not.

 

people like you are going to have to get used to the idea that clubs like Spurs think bigger, act bigger than we do.

 

This is why Gazza and Waddle went there for that reason, despite what other people that say they are long term supporters will tell you.

 

The blip of the Halls and Shepherd, where we correctly punched our weight above clubs like this, is well and truly over.

 

 

 

Gazza, Waddle, Jenas....

 

:colo:

 

you're a fool if you seriously think the sale of Jeanarse and the circmstances of it compares to those of Waddle and Gazza.

 

 

 

Jenas left here because he thought he'd "hit a ceiling" and wanted to move on because Spurs were on the way up.

 

You can try and write it off and say he doesn't count but he clearly does.

 

a player with no particular affinity or feeling for the club, moving on after a few years ?

 

No. I don't think so.

 

Look at your history books, and read about Gazza, Waddle and Beardsley going.......and Pop Robson before that. Similar reasons to Given, but I'm sure you know better than those who witnessed it.

 

Bye.

 

 

 

 

[Guest optimistic nit]

Shay Given - great goalkeeper but nowhere near as good as the media hype. 

His best displays have been in games where we were hammered and the flow of the game was towards him, like the great shot stopper he is it was no surprise the Liverpool defeat again showed him at his best. He does not however command an area like a great goalkeeper would.

Last season was the only one I can recall where Steve Harper played enough games to make any sort of comparison and on the basis of that, Harper's record was MUCH better than Given's in terms of points gained and goals conceded.

So maybe the repacement is already there (most fans felt Harper should have started this season as first choice) and with two very able young keepers coming through eventually they are going to need to see some way to progress otherwhise we will lose them.

Shay's been a great servant - although he did spit the dummy out when he didn't get his own way, but at his age and with the cover we have in that position I'd take Man City's hand off if a stupid bid is put on the table.

 

harper is the most overated player in our squad.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

The FACTS would tend to disagree.

 

Last season's records league records.

 

HARPER  Played 19  Points gained  26  Goals for 26 Goals against 23. Average goals conceded per game 1.21 - record extrapolated over full season  - 52 points -  i.e 10th in league.

 

GIVEN    Played 19  Points gained  17  Goals for 19 Goals against 42. Average goals conceded per game  2,21 - record extrapolated over full season -  34 points - i.e 19th in league (relegation)

 

The real facts

 

Shay Given 11 years - No 1

 

Steve Harper 11 years - No 2

 

That should tell you all you need to know about the two.

 

Also Shay is willing to uproot as he has high standards and ambitions, Harper is happy to play 100 games or so in over 10 years as second fiddle.

 

I know who I prefer, both as a player and as a professional.

[Guest]

Seems strange that he'd be playing if he's on his way given that he'd be cup-tied...although looking at the Man City score it might be irrelevant anyway.

[Benwell Lad]

The FACTS would tend to disagree.

 

Last season's records league records.

 

HARPER   Played 19  Points gained  26  Goals for 26 Goals against 23. Average goals conceded per game 1.21 - record extrapolated over full season  - 52 points -  i.e 10th in league.

 

GIVEN     Played 19  Points gained  17   Goals for 19 Goals against 42. Average goals conceded per game  2,21 - record extrapolated over full season -  34 points - i.e 19th in league (relegation)

 

The real facts

 

Shay Given 11 years - No 1

 

Steve Harper 11 years - No 2

 

That should tell you all you need to know about the two.

 

Also Shay is willing to uproot as he has high standards and ambitions, Harper is happy to play 100 games or so in over 10 years as second fiddle.

 

I know who I prefer, both as a player and as a professional.

 

A noble sentiment indeed - what a great guy. Spot the difference between that and the popular view of Owen keeping his options open.

Given may or may not leave and I for one am not that bothered either way as he's a good keeper but hardly irreplaceable.

If he left for, lets say Man City, it would prove it has nothing to do with ambition but solely the money. Just like Distin did (spot the difference).

[Benwell Lad]

The idea of him playing for Tottenham makes my blood boil. Hopefully not.

 

people like you are going to have to get used to the idea that clubs like Spurs think bigger, act bigger than we do.

 

This is why Gazza and Waddle went there for that reason, despite what other people that say they are long term supporters will tell you.

 

The blip of the Halls and Shepherd, where we correctly punched our weight above clubs like this, is well and truly over.

 

 

 

Gazza, Waddle, Jenas....

 

:colo:

 

you're a fool if you seriously think the sale of Jeanarse and the circmstances of it compares to those of Waddle and Gazza.

 

 

 

Jenas left here because he thought he'd "hit a ceiling" and wanted to move on because Spurs were on the way up.

 

You can try and write it off and say he doesn't count but he clearly does.

 

a player with no particular affinity or feeling for the club, moving on after a few years ?

 

No. I don't think so.

 

Look at your history books, and read about Gazza, Waddle and Beardsley going.......and Pop Robson before that. Similar reasons to Given, but I'm sure you know better than those who witnessed it.

 

Bye.

 

 

 

 

 

I've been around during all those debacles you quote from Pop Robson up to Given but the possible departure of Given has NOTHING in common with the others. Nice try though.

[Benwell Lad]

Shay Given - great goalkeeper but nowhere near as good as the media hype. 

His best displays have been in games where we were hammered and the flow of the game was towards him, like the great shot stopper he is it was no surprise the Liverpool defeat again showed him at his best. He does not however command an area like a great goalkeeper would.

Last season was the only one I can recall where Steve Harper played enough games to make any sort of comparison and on the basis of that, Harper's record was MUCH better than Given's in terms of points gained and goals conceded.

So maybe the repacement is already there (most fans felt Harper should have started this season as first choice) and with two very able young keepers coming through eventually they are going to need to see some way to progress otherwhise we will lose them.

Shay's been a great servant - although he did spit the dummy out when he didn't get his own way, but at his age and with the cover we have in that position I'd take Man City's hand off if a stupid bid is put on the table.

 

Scary that you believe we have the quality of Given waiting in the wings

 

The FACTS would tend to back me up.

 

Last season's records league records.

 

HARPER   Played 19  Points gained  26  Goals for 26 Goals against 23. Average goals conceded per game 1.21 - record extrapolated over full season  - 52 points -  i.e 10th in league.

 

GIVEN     Played 19  Points gained  17   Goals for 19 Goals against 42. Average goals conceded per game  2,21 - record extrapolated over full season -  34 points - i.e 19th in league (relegation)

 

That's a neat thing you're doing comparing Given's worst ever season (due to injury,) to what's probably Harper's best.

 

Not really. There is no other season where a reasonable comparison could be made, but 19 games each gives a chance to do so.

Whatever damned lies and statistics may portray those figures are pretty stark.

To imply a Premiership team would play someone not fit while a decent and fit keeper sat on the bench is crazy. If that was the case then Keegan really did have it in for us !

No, Given's fitness would have been tested to the limits before any game he played in.

[Greg]

Shay Given - great goalkeeper but nowhere near as good as the media hype. 

His best displays have been in games where we were hammered and the flow of the game was towards him, like the great shot stopper he is it was no surprise the Liverpool defeat again showed him at his best. He does not however command an area like a great goalkeeper would.

Last season was the only one I can recall where Steve Harper played enough games to make any sort of comparison and on the basis of that, Harper's record was MUCH better than Given's in terms of points gained and goals conceded.

So maybe the repacement is already there (most fans felt Harper should have started this season as first choice) and with two very able young keepers coming through eventually they are going to need to see some way to progress otherwhise we will lose them.

Shay's been a great servant - although he did spit the dummy out when he didn't get his own way, but at his age and with the cover we have in that position I'd take Man City's hand off if a stupid bid is put on the table.

 

Scary that you believe we have the quality of Given waiting in the wings

 

The FACTS would tend to back me up.

 

Last season's records league records.

 

HARPER   Played 19  Points gained  26  Goals for 26 Goals against 23. Average goals conceded per game 1.21 - record extrapolated over full season  - 52 points -  i.e 10th in league.

 

GIVEN     Played 19  Points gained  17   Goals for 19 Goals against 42. Average goals conceded per game  2,21 - record extrapolated over full season -  34 points - i.e 19th in league (relegation)

 

That's a neat thing you're doing comparing Given's worst ever season (due to injury,) to what's probably Harper's best.

 

Not really. There is no other season where a reasonable comparison could be made, but 19 games each gives a chance to do so.

Whatever damned lies and statistics may portray those figures are pretty stark.

To imply a Premiership team would play someone not fit while a decent and fit keeper sat on the bench is crazy. If that was the case then Keegan really did have it in for us !

No, Given's fitness would have been tested to the limits before any game he played in.

 

You're typing s****. Stats can be manipulated in many ways to show pretty much what you want them to say.

 

Do you think the 15 goals Given conceded in 3 games against Man United x2 and Villa last season would not have been conceded had Harper been playing?

 

Those stats don't take into account the quality of opposition amongst other things.

 

 

[Thespence]

Shay Given - great goalkeeper but nowhere near as good as the media hype. 

His best displays have been in games where we were hammered and the flow of the game was towards him, like the great shot stopper he is it was no surprise the Liverpool defeat again showed him at his best. He does not however command an area like a great goalkeeper would.

Last season was the only one I can recall where Steve Harper played enough games to make any sort of comparison and on the basis of that, Harper's record was MUCH better than Given's in terms of points gained and goals conceded.

So maybe the repacement is already there (most fans felt Harper should have started this season as first choice) and with two very able young keepers coming through eventually they are going to need to see some way to progress otherwhise we will lose them.

Shay's been a great servant - although he did spit the dummy out when he didn't get his own way, but at his age and with the cover we have in that position I'd take Man City's hand off if a stupid bid is put on the table.

 

Scary that you believe we have the quality of Given waiting in the wings

 

The FACTS would tend to back me up.

 

Last season's records league records.

 

HARPER   Played 19  Points gained  26  Goals for 26 Goals against 23. Average goals conceded per game 1.21 - record extrapolated over full season  - 52 points -  i.e 10th in league.

 

GIVEN     Played 19  Points gained  17   Goals for 19 Goals against 42. Average goals conceded per game  2,21 - record extrapolated over full season -  34 points - i.e 19th in league (relegation)

 

That's a neat thing you're doing comparing Given's worst ever season (due to injury,) to what's probably Harper's best.

 

Not really. There is no other season where a reasonable comparison could be made, but 19 games each gives a chance to do so.

Whatever damned lies and statistics may portray those figures are pretty stark.

To imply a Premiership team would play someone not fit while a decent and fit keeper sat on the bench is crazy. If that was the case then Keegan really did have it in for us !

No, Given's fitness would have been tested to the limits before any game he played in.

 

He had groin problem most of the season which was a roll over from the previous season, that is how Harper played a lot of games. Yes he passed medicals but it wasn't until he saw Dr Ulrike Muschaweck he was sorted

[Wullie]

The FACTS would tend to disagree.

 

Last season's records league records.

 

HARPER  Played 19  Points gained  26  Goals for 26 Goals against 23. Average goals conceded per game 1.21 - record extrapolated over full season  - 52 points -  i.e 10th in league.

 

GIVEN    Played 19  Points gained  17  Goals for 19 Goals against 42. Average goals conceded per game  2,21 - record extrapolated over full season -  34 points - i.e 19th in league (relegation)

 

The real facts

 

Shay Given 11 years - No 1

 

Steve Harper 11 years - No 2

 

That should tell you all you need to know about the two.

 

Also Shay is willing to uproot as he has high standards and ambitions, Harper is happy to play 100 games or so in over 10 years as second fiddle.

 

I know who I prefer, both as a player and as a professional.

 

A noble sentiment indeed - what a great guy. Spot the difference between that and the popular view of Owen keeping his options open.

Given may or may not leave and I for one am not that bothered either way as he's a good keeper but hardly irreplaceable.

If he left for, lets say Man City, it would prove it has nothing to do with ambition but solely the money. Just like Distin did (spot the difference).

 

I very much doubt Man City's ambition starts and ends with their current state of play.