The Liverpool Thread

[cp40]

ITV News rolled out another ex South Yorkshire chief constable for the news earlier - he was insisting that a small minority of Liverpool fans were to blame.

 

Even if that concept hadn't been unequivocally discredited by the enquiry, how could it in any way absolve the police of any blame? That the behaviour of 'a small minority' of fans could possibly result in the death of almost 100 people at a sporting event under their watch is an absolutely ridiculous idea and would merely be further proof of their sheer incompetence.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Even if fans were ticketless, drunk or even misbehaving, that does not excuse the total fuck up of a job the people employed to make sure people remain safe, did before, during and after the match to the point their actions helped kill people. Then there was the actual on going war on the victims, families and the people of Liverpool by the press, police and politicians. The whole thing is a national disgrace and those involved in the deaths and cover up all need to be prosecuted accordingly. I was once of the opinion that LFC fans needed to move on (not the families) but after the last few years, it's clear I was totally wrong and I'm so happy for everyone connected to LFC and the city of Liverpool because they were wronged on an epic scale.

[wacko]

Even if fans were ticketless, drunk or even misbehaving, that does not excuse the total fuck up of a job the people employed to make sure people remain safe, did before, during and after the match to the point their actions helped kill people. Then there was the actual on going war on the victims, families and the people of Liverpool by the press, police and politicians. The whole thing is a national disgrace and those involved in the deaths and cover up all need to be prosecuted accordingly. I was once of the opinion that LFC fans needed to move on (not the families) but after the last few years, it's clear I was totally wrong and I'm so happy for everyone connected to LFC and the city of Liverpool because they were wronged on an epic scale.

 

Most of the information—apart from the long-overdue admission of culpability by Duckenfield—has been available for many years. It was there for anyone to find, and I mean things like interviews with policemen who were on duty that day and expert opinions of coroners—not just the opinions of Liverpool fans who were or were not there. It's all on the web, a googling away.

 

But the smear campaign and cover-up were so successful that hardly anybody that isn't from Merseyside or a Liverpool fan ever bothered to go looking.

 

I've had the Hillsborough conversation very many times over the years, and there has always been one of two reactions. Most people who went to games in the '80s said "there but for the grace of God go we" and everyone else took a "treat the conspiracy theorist with kid gloves" attitude.

 

[summerof69]

Jim Mcgovern's Hillsbrough, will be shown on ITV, this sunday. I don't think I would have been able to make sense of it all, had it not been for this film.

[newsted]

 

Most of the information—apart from the long-overdue admission of culpability by Duckenfield—has been available for many years. It was there for anyone to find, and I mean things like interviews with policemen who were on duty that day and expert opinions of coroners—not just the opinions of Liverpool fans who were or were not there. It's all on the web, a googling away.

 

But the smear campaign and cover-up were so successful that hardly anybody that isn't from Merseyside or a Liverpool fan ever bothered to go looking.

 

I've had the Hillsborough conversation very many times over the years, and there has always been one of two reactions. Most people who went to games in the '80s said "there but for the grace of God go we" and everyone else took a "treat the conspiracy theorist with kid gloves" attitude.

 

 

This, man. On many occasions. I think I bailed out twice, but being treated like expendable detritus was fucking horrible. All the police were dreadful, they assumed we were scum. My stepson was a Liverpool fan at the time (now NUFC of course, indoctrination works brilliantly) so we watched it unfold on TV. None of us have ever doubted it was the fault of the police. There must have been some decent ones, but they weren't in charge, that's not how it works.

 

It's a national scandal and it must be addressed.

[Stottie]

But the smear campaign and cover-up were so successful that hardly anybody that isn't from Merseyside or a Liverpool fan ever bothered to go looking.

 

 

I think that is an overstatement. I think a good number of match-going fans from the 70s and 80s know what happened and will have been 100% behind the families all the way. Match going fans will know it could have been them.

[Deuce]

Everton's programme tomorrow - classy touch;

 

http://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20160429/645020225e44acbe1e2d81cbe45951ad.jpg

 

That's class.

[wacko]

But the smear campaign and cover-up were so successful that hardly anybody that isn't from Merseyside or a Liverpool fan ever bothered to go looking.

 

 

I think that is an overstatement. I think a good number of match-going fans from the 70s and 80s know what happened and will have been 100% behind the families all the way. Match going fans will know it could have been them.

 

Isn't that what I said in the next paragraph? At any rate, that's true.

[Mick]

 

Isn't that what I said in the next paragraph? At any rate, that's true.

 

I've got to be honest, I knew what was alleged to have happened but couldn't believe that a cover up on the scale that it had happened was possible.  I didn't take the side of the police because I knew what they were like but I didn't for one minute think that the cover up of those proportions was possible in this country and I was wrong.

[NG32]

It does lead you to think about other incidents which have been covered up.

[Stottie]

But the smear campaign and cover-up were so successful that hardly anybody that isn't from Merseyside or a Liverpool fan ever bothered to go looking.

 

 

I think that is an overstatement. I think a good number of match-going fans from the 70s and 80s know what happened and will have been 100% behind the families all the way. Match going fans will know it could have been them.

 

Isn't that what I said in the next paragraph? At any rate, that's true.

 

Sorry mate, I should have read it better. My fault entirely.

 

fwiw, on the subject of 1980s smear campaigns, I bet there are millions of people who still believe all the lies about the miners, like Gaddhafi paying off Arthur Scargill's mortgage.

 

In terms of cover ups, maybe the next one to come out is that child sex ring that was operating with high-level MP involvement.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/mar/17/westminster-child-abuse-paedophile-ring-failure

[leffe186]

 

Isn't that what I said in the next paragraph? At any rate, that's true.

 

I've got to be honest, I knew what was alleged to have happened but couldn't believe that a cover up on the scale that it had happened was possible.  I didn't take the side of the police because I knew what they were like but I didn't for one minute think that the cover up of those proportions was possible in this country and I was wrong.

 

I came at it from the other angle. As a fan at the time, I knew full well that what happened was possible - and  inevitable, given prevailing attitudes. As such, I just felt there had to have been a cover-up. It just logically followed.

 

I think it's impossible to convey to people who weren't around at the time how football fans were viewed by many, and not just those in power.

[Dom2]

Great tribute from NUFC fans yesterday, thank you.

 

 

[Incognito]

Despite experiencing Leppings Lane at full capacity, and being uncomfortable within it, at the time, I ashamedly admit to being taken in by the press. I recalled the first all Merseyside Cup Final in 86, and saw the fans climbing through windows to avoid the turnstiles, and put 2 and 2 together and made 5. The McGovern documentary was the game changer for me. I can't believe I was so gullible originally.

[wacko]

Great tribute from NUFC fans yesterday, thank you.

 

Aye, that was awesome 

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I'm very critical of our fanbase, but I fancied our lot to do more than just clap. I was quite moved and it was a smashing show of respect and solidarity. Rivalries aside Liverpool and Newcastle are quite similar as cities, people and clubs. Working class, honest and passionate.

[Stifler]

I just wanted to say this, it maybe a bit long winded but try and bare with it.

 

I was born in 1989, after the Hillsborough disaster. I never attended football matches until I was 11 or so and when I did SJP had been fully developed with a capacity of 52k so I never experienced grounds like they were back then.

 

Myself and my generation have been brought up on tales of violence from the 70's and 80's and the tales have increased from something your dad, uncle, grandad, or other older generations of fans said to now being made into books, and movies. True Faith I feel was a magazine that glorified the violence of the past, every edition would have at least one guest writer telling a story of how he and his mates got out off a bus and smashed some Coventry fans walking down the street or parked up and were ambushed and resulted in the best fight since their last visit. On top of this we have also been able to see what happened in Heysel and how some Liverpool fans got into the ground in Anthens without tickets in the 2007 Champions League final, and you could also throw in how the Man City fans walking out on the last day a few years ago were climbing up the side of the stadium to get back in.

 

You might be asking why all this is relevant, well this is why. With the history we have been presented with, far too many fans for my liking still glorify the days of hooliganism, you can see that with the addition of tales and the cover up of Hillsborough that the cover up story can actually be believable either totally or somewhat from people who were never there and experienced it.

 

If it wasn't the last few years of the inquest, new information coming to light, and even tales from fans of other clubs (including you all) of how it was nearly them that it happened too then people my age could easily be duped into believing the cover up story is the actual account. Myself I have to hold my hands up, in the past I have believed that story and it could easily have been that it would be the story I knew for the rest of my life and others my age would know and pretty soon the story would always be one of 'Liverpool fans wanting to free themselves of the guilt'.

Over the last few years, and certainly the last month or so I've been able to know more about what happened (and I don't think I'll be the only one) and I'm thankful for that. At the end of the day no fan should die at a football match, and I certainly believe that the fans that day shouldn't be blamed for the deaths of others and themselves.

 

So I thought I'd just say that this weeks news and the inquest is not only gaining justice, but it's teaching people who never knew and those who have been fed tit bits of information that could make them come the wrong conclusions so people in my generation and those in the future truly know and understand the truth about what happened. Yesterday at SJP was the moment where I fully understood that it wasn't just a tribute for Liverpool fans that this was about, it was a tribute for the whole of football.

 

I hope that makes sense.

[Dom2]

Great post Stifler, you've got it right.

 

It was a tribute to the whole of football.

 

Jimmy McGoverns docudrama 'Hillsborough' is about to start on ITV.  It pretty much says all that we've heard this week, but puts personalities to some of the people involved.

[Ronaldo]

One of the heaviest bits of filmmaking I've ever seen, that. Really tough to watch.

[Incognito]

I just wanted to say this, it maybe a bit long winded but try and bare with it.

 

I was born in 1989, after the Hillsborough disaster. I never attended football matches until I was 11 or so and when I did SJP had been fully developed with a capacity of 52k so I never experienced grounds like they were back then.

 

Myself and my generation have been brought up on tales of violence from the 70's and 80's and the tales have increased from something your dad, uncle, grandad, or other older generations of fans said to now being made into books, and movies. True Faith I feel was a magazine that glorified the violence of the past, every edition would have at least one guest writer telling a story of how he and his mates got out off a bus and smashed some Coventry fans walking down the street or parked up and were ambushed and resulted in the best fight since their last visit. On top of this we have also been able to see what happened in Heysel and how some Liverpool fans got into the ground in Anthens without tickets in the 2007 Champions League final, and you could also throw in how the Man City fans walking out on the last day a few years ago were climbing up the side of the stadium to get back in.

 

You might be asking why all this is relevant, well this is why. With the history we have been presented with, far too many fans for my liking still glorify the days of hooliganism, you can see that with the addition of tales and the cover up of Hillsborough that the cover up story can actually be believable either totally or somewhat from people who were never there and experienced it.

 

If it wasn't the last few years of the inquest, new information coming to light, and even tales from fans of other clubs (including you all) of how it was nearly them that it happened too then people my age could easily be duped into believing the cover up story is the actual account. Myself I have to hold my hands up, in the past I have believed that story and it could easily have been that it would be the story I knew for the rest of my life and others my age would know and pretty soon the story would always be one of 'Liverpool fans wanting to free themselves of the guilt'.

Over the last few years, and certainly the last month or so I've been able to know more about what happened (and I don't think I'll be the only one) and I'm thankful for that. At the end of the day no fan should die at a football match, and I certainly believe that the fans that day shouldn't be blamed for the deaths of others and themselves.

 

So I thought I'd just say that this weeks news and the inquest is not only gaining justice, but it's teaching people who never knew and those who have been fed tit bits of information that could make them come the wrong conclusions so people in my generation and those in the future truly know and understand the truth about what happened. Yesterday at SJP was the moment where I fully understood that it wasn't just a tribute for Liverpool fans that this was about, it was a tribute for the whole of football.

 

I hope that makes sense.

That's a very good post. However with not one typo nor a spelling mistake, I'm sorry to assume it's a c and p job.

 

 

Edit: Oh hang on I've spotted one.

[Nobody]

I just wanted to say this, it maybe a bit long winded but try and bare with it.

 

I was born in 1989, after the Hillsborough disaster. I never attended football matches until I was 11 or so and when I did SJP had been fully developed with a capacity of 52k so I never experienced grounds like they were back then.

 

Myself and my generation have been brought up on tales of violence from the 70's and 80's and the tales have increased from something your dad, uncle, grandad, or other older generations of fans said to now being made into books, and movies. True Faith I feel was a magazine that glorified the violence of the past, every edition would have at least one guest writer telling a story of how he and his mates got out off a bus and smashed some Coventry fans walking down the street or parked up and were ambushed and resulted in the best fight since their last visit. On top of this we have also been able to see what happened in Heysel and how some Liverpool fans got into the ground in Anthens without tickets in the 2007 Champions League final, and you could also throw in how the Man City fans walking out on the last day a few years ago were climbing up the side of the stadium to get back in.

 

You might be asking why all this is relevant, well this is why. With the history we have been presented with, far too many fans for my liking still glorify the days of hooliganism, you can see that with the addition of tales and the cover up of Hillsborough that the cover up story can actually be believable either totally or somewhat from people who were never there and experienced it.

 

If it wasn't the last few years of the inquest, new information coming to light, and even tales from fans of other clubs (including you all) of how it was nearly them that it happened too then people my age could easily be duped into believing the cover up story is the actual account. Myself I have to hold my hands up, in the past I have believed that story and it could easily have been that it would be the story I knew for the rest of my life and others my age would know and pretty soon the story would always be one of 'Liverpool fans wanting to free themselves of the guilt'.

Over the last few years, and certainly the last month or so I've been able to know more about what happened (and I don't think I'll be the only one) and I'm thankful for that. At the end of the day no fan should die at a football match, and I certainly believe that the fans that day shouldn't be blamed for the deaths of others and themselves.

 

So I thought I'd just say that this weeks news and the inquest is not only gaining justice, but it's teaching people who never knew and those who have been fed tit bits of information that could make them come the wrong conclusions so people in my generation and those in the future truly know and understand the truth about what happened. Yesterday at SJP was the moment where I fully understood that it wasn't just a tribute for Liverpool fans that this was about, it was a tribute for the whole of football.

 

I hope that makes sense.

That's a very good post. However with not one typo nor a spelling mistake, I'm sorry to assume it's a c and p job.

 

 

Edit: Oh hang on I've spotted one.

There's a fair few in there like

Very good post though Stifler, as someone of the same generation, that is exactly how I've felt about this as well.

[Incognito]

I just wanted to say this, it maybe a bit long winded but try and bare with it.

 

I was born in 1989, after the Hillsborough disaster. I never attended football matches until I was 11 or so and when I did SJP had been fully developed with a capacity of 52k so I never experienced grounds like they were back then.

 

Myself and my generation have been brought up on tales of violence from the 70's and 80's and the tales have increased from something your dad, uncle, grandad, or other older generations of fans said to now being made into books, and movies. True Faith I feel was a magazine that glorified the violence of the past, every edition would have at least one guest writer telling a story of how he and his mates got out off a bus and smashed some Coventry fans walking down the street or parked up and were ambushed and resulted in the best fight since their last visit. On top of this we have also been able to see what happened in Heysel and how some Liverpool fans got into the ground in Anthens without tickets in the 2007 Champions League final, and you could also throw in how the Man City fans walking out on the last day a few years ago were climbing up the side of the stadium to get back in.

 

You might be asking why all this is relevant, well this is why. With the history we have been presented with, far too many fans for my liking still glorify the days of hooliganism, you can see that with the addition of tales and the cover up of Hillsborough that the cover up story can actually be believable either totally or somewhat from people who were never there and experienced it.

 

If it wasn't the last few years of the inquest, new information coming to light, and even tales from fans of other clubs (including you all) of how it was nearly them that it happened too then people my age could easily be duped into believing the cover up story is the actual account. Myself I have to hold my hands up, in the past I have believed that story and it could easily have been that it would be the story I knew for the rest of my life and others my age would know and pretty soon the story would always be one of 'Liverpool fans wanting to free themselves of the guilt'.

Over the last few years, and certainly the last month or so I've been able to know more about what happened (and I don't think I'll be the only one) and I'm thankful for that. At the end of the day no fan should die at a football match, and I certainly believe that the fans that day shouldn't be blamed for the deaths of others and themselves.

 

So I thought I'd just say that this weeks news and the inquest is not only gaining justice, but it's teaching people who never knew and those who have been fed tit bits of information that could make them come the wrong conclusions so people in my generation and those in the future truly know and understand the truth about what happened. Yesterday at SJP was the moment where I fully understood that it wasn't just a tribute for Liverpool fans that this was about, it was a tribute for the whole of football.

 

I hope that makes sense.

That's a very good post. However with not one typo nor a spelling mistake, I'm sorry to assume it's a c and p job.

 

 

Edit: Oh hang on I've spotted one.

There's a fair few in there like

Very good post though Stifler, as someone of the same generation, that is exactly how I've felt about this as well.

 

Yeah, i can see a couple now.

 

Still maintain that it isn't his work though.  It's excellently written, which kind of highlights it for me.

[Dom2]

About Kenny Dalglish.  I don't want to see him slagged by LFC fans, so I'd be glad to see any negativity about him deleted on a Reds site.

 

Kenny means far more than ex player/manager to most Scousers.  He led this city through those first couple of weeks after Hillsborough,  always had the right answer when questioned by the press, and always kept his dignity.

 

The day after Hillsborough Kenny and Marina opened the players lounge as a drop in centre for the families and survivors, just so they'd have somewhere to grieve together.  He and his wife were there every day, and made themselves available  to listen, talk, make tea, or anything else the families wanted. When the funerals started he was attending a couple a day, one day he attended 4.  When the FA were saying we must get back to playing the backlog of matches he told them no, not until it was ok with the families. He was voted 'Man of the Decade' at the end of that year by the people of this country, and rightly so. Kenny would have to do a whole lot more than make a few mistakes as manager for me to want to see, or join in any criticism.

 

About RAWK, it's one of the biggest footy sites on the net and has it's fair share of nutters, but it also has some of the best fan writers, best footy reports and chat about the match, and for me, the only place to go during the transfer window because they delete any unfounded rumours and only accept rumours from credited sources.  Yes, they can be a bit petty but there's loads and loads of good reading.

 

[Stifler]

I just wanted to say this, it maybe a bit long winded but try and bare with it.

 

I was born in 1989, after the Hillsborough disaster. I never attended football matches until I was 11 or so and when I did SJP had been fully developed with a capacity of 52k so I never experienced grounds like they were back then.

 

Myself and my generation have been brought up on tales of violence from the 70's and 80's and the tales have increased from something your dad, uncle, grandad, or other older generations of fans said to now being made into books, and movies. True Faith I feel was a magazine that glorified the violence of the past, every edition would have at least one guest writer telling a story of how he and his mates got out off a bus and smashed some Coventry fans walking down the street or parked up and were ambushed and resulted in the best fight since their last visit. On top of this we have also been able to see what happened in Heysel and how some Liverpool fans got into the ground in Anthens without tickets in the 2007 Champions League final, and you could also throw in how the Man City fans walking out on the last day a few years ago were climbing up the side of the stadium to get back in.

 

You might be asking why all this is relevant, well this is why. With the history we have been presented with, far too many fans for my liking still glorify the days of hooliganism, you can see that with the addition of tales and the cover up of Hillsborough that the cover up story can actually be believable either totally or somewhat from people who were never there and experienced it.

 

If it wasn't the last few years of the inquest, new information coming to light, and even tales from fans of other clubs (including you all) of how it was nearly them that it happened too then people my age could easily be duped into believing the cover up story is the actual account. Myself I have to hold my hands up, in the past I have believed that story and it could easily have been that it would be the story I knew for the rest of my life and others my age would know and pretty soon the story would always be one of 'Liverpool fans wanting to free themselves of the guilt'.

Over the last few years, and certainly the last month or so I've been able to know more about what happened (and I don't think I'll be the only one) and I'm thankful for that. At the end of the day no fan should die at a football match, and I certainly believe that the fans that day shouldn't be blamed for the deaths of others and themselves.

 

So I thought I'd just say that this weeks news and the inquest is not only gaining justice, but it's teaching people who never knew and those who have been fed tit bits of information that could make them come the wrong conclusions so people in my generation and those in the future truly know and understand the truth about what happened. Yesterday at SJP was the moment where I fully understood that it wasn't just a tribute for Liverpool fans that this was about, it was a tribute for the whole of football.

 

I hope that makes sense.

That's a very good post. However with not one typo nor a spelling mistake, I'm sorry to assume it's a c and p job.

 

 

Edit: Oh hang on I've spotted one.

There's a fair few in there like

Very good post though Stifler, as someone of the same generation, that is exactly how I've felt about this as well.

 

Yeah, i can see a couple now.

 

Still maintain that it isn't his work though.  It's excellently written, which kind of highlights it for me.

It's all mine, I spotted a few errors which I fixed in edits.

[wacko]

It's "bear with it/me", not "bare". Unless you wanna get nekkid.