Football's greatest - where does Lionel Messi rank?

[Mick]

You DON'T see how it had can be argued against? I respect those that believe that Messi is the best ever, but there are millions of reasons why to argue against. Not saying he ISN'T even if I believe he isn't, I'm just saying there are many arguments to why people wouldn't think of Messi as the best ever.

 

What has he ever achieved outside of Barcelona? That is one argument, not talking clublevel here, why move if you are winning everything, but I'm talking with Argentina? How come he can't ever impose his qualities when it comes down to it? Friendlys sure, scoring three against a Olympic Brazilian side isn't really anything to brag about.

 

My reasons for preferring Pele over Messi is that both were quality players, but what makes Pele a player above is that he made everyone around him better. Messi just doesn't do that which you can see with the national side, if anything the players in Barcelona makes him better.

 

I do respect everyones opinions and I do see why many rate Messi as the best ever, but at the moment Pele IMO still is, but who knows in 10 years?

 

I'm not sure how you can claim Pele made players better, I remember him playing with some fantastic players for Brazil and can't see how such a claim can be made.  Garrincha, Carlos Alberto, Gerson, Jairzinho and Rivellino were fantastic players and I don't think Pele did anything to make those players look any better other than being another good player to play with.

 

I would argue that playing in Spain today is a lot more difficult than is was to play in Brazil when Pele was playing.  Also, International football is much more competitive today than it was back in the 60's and 70's.  Look at the make-up of the qualified teams back then to now, it was almost entirely South America v Europe. 

 

Like it or not, football is now a global sport and it’s a sport which on a competitive basis hardly bares any resemblance to the game 40 to 50 years ago.

[tmonkey]

So he doesn't just have to have a dominant campaign, which he clearly has by anyone's standards, but he has to have it against "strong defensive teams"? Maybe they should just get you to do the draw in future.

 

If he's subdued or quiet against the very best teams (of which Madrid, Leverkusen and Arsenal weren't during those years, imo anyway), then no, he hasn't had any dominant standout CL campaigns from start to finish within the context of him being the greatest player ever.

 

The only campaign you refer to is the 2010/11 one, where he did tear Madrid apart in the semi's, but then he was very limited against ManU in the final (same as a few years earlier) - shut out to a similar extent as Chelsea and Inter in previous seasons. His goal came out of frustration because he was struggling to get into the game, and the goal itself was a shot straight down the middle that should easily have been saved were it not Van der Saar on the verge of retirement (you can't honestly say that the goal wasn't attributable to poor keeping?). The point I'm making is that I think he struggled, just like in previous years, against an organised, high calibre team that had set out to mark him out of the game, and he didn't perform to anywhere near his all-time-great standards - and this is a recurring theme in the CL and for Argentina.

[Neil]

So he doesn't just have to have a dominant campaign, which he clearly has by anyone's standards, but he has to have it against "strong defensive teams"? Maybe they should just get you to do the draw in future.

 

If he's subdued or quiet against the very best teams (of which Madrid, Leverkusen and Arsenal weren't during those years, imo anyway), then no, he hasn't had any dominant standout CL campaigns from start to finish within the context of him being the greatest player ever.

 

The only campaign you refer to is the 2010/11 one, where he did tear Madrid apart in the semi's, but then he was very limited against ManU in the final (same as a few years earlier) - shut out to a similar extent as Chelsea and Inter in previous seasons. His goal came out of frustration because he was struggling to get into the game, and the goal itself was a shot straight down the middle that should easily have been saved were it not Van der Saar on the verge of retirement (you can't honestly say that the goal wasn't attributable to poor keeping?). The point I'm making is that I think he struggled, just like in previous years, against an organised, high calibre team that had set out to mark him out of the game, and he didn't perform to anywhere near his all-time-great standards - and this is a recurring theme in the CL and for Argentina.

 

He ran the show man.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Won the CL twice and top scorer 3 years running and probably will do it again this year.....

 

Never been dominate.... yeah right.

 

He's so f*cking dominate that teams have to put 3 men on him ffs

[Froggy]

Trust me mate, Messi was FAR from subdued. We could do absolutely nothing against his movement. He wasn't the best player in either final for me, Iniesta was, but he was deadly and was simply too good for five of our midfielders and four of our defenders to deal with.

 

He scored in both finals btw, including a header, and while VDS was aging and on the verge of retirement, he was still class.

 

 

[Froggy]

Oh and we were a strong defensive team. IIRC we didn't concede a goal away from home in one of those CL campaigns. We were hard to score against, and Messi ripped us several new bumholes.

[Neil]

Oh and we were a strong defensive team. IIRC we didn't concede a goal away from home in one of those CL campaigns. We were hard to score against, and Messi ripped us several new bumholes.

 

Subdued.

[ponsaelius]

He was pretty excellent in that CL final. Remember a great piece of skill around Nani in creating Villa's goal.

[Froggy]

Oh and we were a strong defensive team. IIRC we didn't concede a goal away from home in one of those CL campaigns. We were hard to score against, and Messi ripped us several new bumholes.

 

Subdued.

Oh and we were a strong defensive team. IIRC we didn't concede a goal away from home in one of those CL campaigns. We were hard to score against, and Messi ripped us several new bumholes.

 

Subdued.

 

I don't even know how anyone can have that opinion.

 

For the 3-1 year I gave up tickets for a major Irish festival so I could watch the final. Even when we scored to make it 1-1 I knew we had no chance. I've never seen a game where we have been outplayed more than that one. Horrible game to watch.

 

I remember putting up a status on Facebook in which I couldn't take any positives from the match apart from the fact we got to the final and I was proud of the team for that.

 

Iniesta was getting man marked by two men at stages of the game and it was still no good. Just lightyears ahead of anything we had in midfield.

[LRD]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/640/429/lionel-messi-1_display_image.jpg?1295155392

http://www.behindthehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/messi-scores-the-second-goal-for-barcelona.jpg

 

A midget had no right to score that.

[Froggy]

Apart from his excellent goalkeeping ability, the thing I miss the most about Edwin is his ridiculous faces when attempting a save.

[Mole_Toonfan]

Just shows that if the movement and delivery is on point then size doesn't really matter.

[Cajun]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/640/429/lionel-messi-1_display_image.jpg?1295155392

http://www.behindthehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/messi-scores-the-second-goal-for-barcelona.jpg

 

A midget had no right to score that.

 

Tbf he has got about 400 foot off the ground.

[Dinho lad]

Van Der Sar's face.

[hakka]

Just shows that if the movement and delivery is on point then size doesn't really matter.

 

I think the quality in the cross was half the job done for Messi tbh.

 

Still a great header though, was astounded at the time he'd score one like that.

[Sifu]

http://cdn.bleacherreport.net/images_root/slides/photos/000/640/429/lionel-messi-1_display_image.jpg?1295155392

http://www.behindthehype.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/05/messi-scores-the-second-goal-for-barcelona.jpg

 

A midget had no right to score that.

 

Cracking header that, remember Rio looking like a mug for not even challenging for the ball.

[HawK]

1

[Flip]

You DON'T see how it had can be argued against? I respect those that believe that Messi is the best ever, but there are millions of reasons why to argue against. Not saying he ISN'T even if I believe he isn't, I'm just saying there are many arguments to why people wouldn't think of Messi as the best ever.

 

What has he ever achieved outside of Barcelona? That is one argument, not talking clublevel here, why move if you are winning everything, but I'm talking with Argentina? How come he can't ever impose his qualities when it comes down to it? Friendlys sure, scoring three against a Olympic Brazilian side isn't really anything to brag about.

 

My reasons for preferring Pele over Messi is that both were quality players, but what makes Pele a player above is that he made everyone around him better. Messi just doesn't do that which you can see with the national side, if anything the players in Barcelona makes him better.

 

I do respect everyones opinions and I do see why many rate Messi as the best ever, but at the moment Pele IMO still is, but who knows in 10 years?

 

I'm not sure how you can claim Pele made players better, I remember him playing with some fantastic players for Brazil and can't see how such a claim can be made.  Garrincha, Carlos Alberto, Gerson, Jairzinho and Rivellino were fantastic players and I don't think Pele did anything to make those players look any better other than being another good player to play with.

 

I would argue that playing in Spain today is a lot more difficult than is was to play in Brazil when Pele was playing.  Also, International football is much more competitive today than it was back in the 60's and 70's.  Look at the make-up of the qualified teams back then to now, it was almost entirely South America v Europe. 

 

Like it or not, football is now a global sport and it’s a sport which on a competitive basis hardly bares any resemblance to the game 40 to 50 years ago.

 

Hhonestly, naming the players Pele played with at the end of his career for ONE WORLD CUP as well as Garrincha isn't really relevant, since his career was longer than the 70s World Cup.

 

I would also argue that it was MUCH MUCH HARDER to play football back then, you didn't have the protections from refs, the opposition supporters were much more hostile and football was a global sport back then too as todays football is still South America v Europe. It's not like it was the stone age man. And also if anything the Club World Cup meant more back then than the Champions League did.

 

[Mole_Toonfan]

Yet no one pressed the player in possession, the changes to the offside rule and not to mention the average player is much fitter and tactically better too.

 

Yes players were allowed to kick at will but the mere fact that average teams press as a team more effectively now than the best teams did then, the fact the offside rule killed some art of defending so much so that the Libero doesn't exist anymore among other things.

 

You could argue it both ways even Sacchi's Milan in the 90s would not be as successful now because of the advances in certain things.

 

I can't honestly say that football in 60s 70s and 80s was harder for players to succeed or harder now....

 

It was easier in different ways and it was also harder in different ways and we adapt with time and change to adapt to the changes of the game anything else is pure history revisionism.

[Tiresias]

I remember watching that final with a bunch of chinese students who were sure their favoured man u would trounce barcalona as man u are apparently the best team in the world, I told them to watch and learn  (got a bit worried I admit when rooney equalised...for about 2 minutes)

[Flip]

Absolutely, I just think that the sport has evolved and therefore you can't put Pele into todays game with the way he played back then. I think to measure to best ever you have too look on natural talent and I believe Pele had more. Pele was further ahead of more competition than Messi has.

[Mick]

 

 

Hhonestly, naming the players Pele played with at the end of his career for ONE WORLD CUP as well as Garrincha isn't really relevant, since his career was longer than the 70s World Cup.

 

I would also argue that it was MUCH MUCH HARDER to play football back then, you didn't have the protections from refs, the opposition supporters were much more hostile and football was a global sport back then too as todays football is still South America v Europe. It's not like it was the stone age man. And also if anything the Club World Cup meant more back then than the Champions League did.

 

 

I named the players that I was able to see and I added Garrincha because of what I've learned since.  How many of them did you actually see play?

 

I'm not trying to knock Pele by the way, until recently he was the best footballer I'd ever seen, I don't think that's the case now and I'll stick with that. 

 

Well done for defending your fellow countryman though.

[Mick]

Absolutely, I just think that the sport has evolved and therefore you can't put Pele into todays game with the way he played back then. I think to measure to best ever you have too look on natural talent and I believe Pele had more. Pele was further ahead of more competition than Messi has.

 

They were/are both better than anybody known on the planet at the time when they were/are the best.

[Flip]

Wow, speechless.

 

Directed at the tiresome 'defending your fellow countryman' post.

 

[matta]

#1