Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 just because you think he is s*** doesn't mean he isn't a winger mate. Franz Carr and Wayne Fereday were classed as wingers too don't forget. Fereday and Carr were also s*** regardless of how they were classed. Exactly right, that's what I am saying. If you looked at Shola's CV you will also see it says "striker" on it. Just because we think they are rubbish doesn't mean that's not the position they play. If a player is poor then it doesn't matter what position he's playing in. Obertan may be a winger but he's been less effective in that position in more games than Ben Arfa has played. Because Obertan is a winger changes nothing, calling Shola a striker is the same. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I might be completely wrong here, but I have seen us play good passing football on a number of occasions this season (certainly more than under Hughton). It's not a case of Pardew being a "hoof ball" manager. He just wants to win. We have played direct at times (maybe 60% of the time across all games), but there is a big difference between "hoof" football and working the ball into wide areas and putting crosses in the box. Ben Arfa can still fit into this team no problem, but I agree with Pardew's current decision to drop him. Aye i said "Hoof and Cross" footy, not just hoof" . Come on we might be winning games but it doesnt cover the fact we play 60% hoof ball. No player that plays pass and move would strive in our system, Mata, Sliva etc just name them ...Never mind Ben Arfa (tbh even Cayabe is limited by his style to a tackler) It would not work , its probably better if we sold him and get a hell of a crosser like Solano to play in Pardew's system. I am fine with us playing this way, but just don't come out and spout nonsense about us trying to play carpet football when we obviously ain't and Pardew obviously can't. I didn't say we played carpet football. I'm saying there's a big difference between "hoof / hoof and cross" and wing based play. I'm being 100% honest here, but I can only count on 1 hand the amount of times this season we've played actual hoof football (Stoke away to some extent, Bolton away, Blackburn away, and a couple of others). And I don't count times when we're under a lot of pressure and hoof the ball away to give us some breathing space, because even the best teams do that. ANFIELD Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The fact that Obertan and Raylor get matches before HBA says a lot! I can`t really be angry this season, but the way Pardew goes about HBA kills me. Most technical gifted player we have, and he does not give him a chance. Yes, he was crap at Brighton and Blackburn, but Obertan get 15+ matches, week in week out. Depressing really. Just to think we have had a player like HBA in our squad, and not give him a fair long spell in the team really boils my p*ss! Get a grip Pardew! Yes Pardew, get a grip!! You have taken this team to within 1 point of a champions league spot, but you are not playing our show pony all the time, doesn't matter that the team is doing great things without him, we demand he plays!! FFS man up will you. Sounds like a glory monger to me, if the results doesnt come your way ,probably flip your switch faster than a coin hit by a train. Look at the fundamentals on the pitch, are we create more chances then our oppositions? Or do we often hang by our teeth ever too often. Yes, yes thats it, I don't agree with you so I am a glory monger, even though I have been going to the games since 1983, the one thing I have never seen much of is glory, believe me. I am also man enough to say I have been wrong about Ben Arfa, if he does come into the team and turn out to be our saviour. But I am not gonna do it until he has shown it, We can't demand him in the team because you think he is lush. Same like you, i think HBA might not fit the direct system we are playing right now. As i conceded, its better to sell him than to keep a talented player in the ranks. Without a doubt Ben Afra would improve our team but only if the manager could see fit on how to utilize him. I said this many times Pardew ain't the story he cook himself to be. Just sell him and get it over with. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 The fact that Obertan and Raylor get matches before HBA says a lot! I can`t really be angry this season, but the way Pardew goes about HBA kills me. Most technical gifted player we have, and he does not give him a chance. Yes, he was crap at Brighton and Blackburn, but Obertan get 15+ matches, week in week out. Depressing really. Just to think we have had a player like HBA in our squad, and not give him a fair long spell in the team really boils my p*ss! Get a grip Pardew! Yes Pardew, get a grip!! You have taken this team to within 1 point of a champions league spot, but you are not playing our show pony all the time, doesn't matter that the team is doing great things without him, we demand he plays!! FFS man up will you. Either you are dumb, or can not read. I think Pardew have done a excellent job, bar the HBAgate. It is clear for everyone to see that he offer more than Obertan Raylor etc. It is his job to integrate this kind of players, to take us even another step up. Cronaldo was pretty crap at first in manu, dribbled all the time, he even dared to lose the ball at times Ferguson worked with him, was determined to make him a good squad player for them. It did eventually happen. Some people, like you settle for what you have, but you should always strive for perfection. And my point is that we have a really good squad, and we have a x-factor in HBA who in my opinion could push us even future. But we probably should stick with Simpson on RB, Obertan LM and i am disappointed that we bought Cisse, we where fifth with Ba and Ameobi. what a weird post?? What HBAgate? What you on about? Just because he isn't playing? He isn't playing because he isn't fitting into the system, it's that simple. He didn't look like he was offering more that Raylor or Obertan to me in his last 3 games, he looked lost and s**** to be honest. He is not on the same level as Ronaldo so we can put that one to bed straight away. He is talented but not a world beater. Yes your opinion is the x-factor Ben arfa (??), but it isn't mine. Obertan has not played LM, and why would anyone be disappointed we bought Cisse? I never said we should not sign anyone as we are 5th, I said why mess around with the formation when it is working for us how it is? Why are people having trouble understanding that part? So how does Obertan fit the system then? I don't get you. How many assist/goals do HBA have, and Obertan? How many matches have Obertan been turbo s***? If we had a freaking good traditional RM, i could understand. But we don`t, and i can not see why HBA should not get the same chances as Obertan. I rate HBA higher than Obertan, and i understand if you don`t, people are different. And sorry, should stand RM, my bad Ronaldo example was not a comparison of pure skill. Its more that they are the same kind of players. Flair, speed, technique. Players that are a little harder to integrate into a starting 11, because they are not the extremely hard workers by nature, you might need other players to cover more for them. The benefit with these kind of players however is great, but only if you are a good manager, and can adapt them into your system. Maybe Pardew has a limit there? Why we having an Obertan and Hatem Ben Arfa cock swinging competion for? I am not saying Obertan is a better player, I am saying Obertan is a right Winger and Ben Arfa isn't. He can be as talented as he likes, but Ben Arfa is not a right winger, and I don't like to see square pegs in round holes. Ok, you don`t think HBA is a right winger, but Obertan is. I get it Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Obertan isn't a footballer, HBA is. Any better? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 HBA isn't a "show pony" at all, what a stupid phrase. Of course he is, he is a "luxury" player that needs a lot of people around him to work their arses off so he can have a free role and do what he needs to do. But you can't run a whole team around 1 player, it just doesn't work. We have got where we are with a magnificent team work ethic. Ben Arfa would be much more suited to a team that can just afford to give him the freedom he needs, which is probably not going to be for a team in the Premiership. Yes he is an amazing talent, but when I watch him, I just don't get the feeling he fits in with what we are trying to do. Yes a class player, but when we are not prepared to run the team around him and ask him to fit in with what we want to do, he looks like he is struggling. I would be with you all and demanding he was playing if we were struggling, but we are having the best season in a long long time, so unfortunately there is no real argument to start him yet. You're wrong there. I do like a reply that is backed up with facts and points to try and add to the discussion. Well done you, you are right you have made me change my mind. What's Obertan's goals and assists ratio per starts compared to Ben Arfa's? I agree Obertan doesn't look the answer in the long run, but he is a right winger, for me Ben Arfa isn't. Having Ben Arfa pigeon holed to the right wing does not seem to suit him at all. For me if he was to play in a 4-4-2 it would have to be on the left. Personally I would like to see him out on the left with Jonas on the right (since Jonas is infact right footed). I remember last year we started away to Man City like that, and I was excited at the prospect of it, and then came along De jong to spoil it all. Personally for me that is the only place I would play Ben Arfa, he isn't a striker and he cuts inside far too much when on the right. HBA is more effective on the right. When he cuts inside, he's on his good foot, he can find a pass for the strikers, he can shoot and score. I agree with the fact he's not a pure winger, that's why he's less useful on the left, mainly when you know his reluctance for blind and indiscriminate crosses If you want him to play on the left, you ask him to play more like a winger (according to Pardew conception of a winger : run fastly along the raw and lump it into the box) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 To be fair to Pardew, he is probably expected to come up with a reason as to why Ben Arfa didn't play every single time he is left out. Everyone knows he's one of our most talented players, so questions are asked. I'm sure he can answer questions without being so direct and he seems to go into some detail when answering them. We've had managers in the past who have been asked questions that they didn't want to answer and they didn't. How many times was Hughton asked about Carroll having a go at Taylor without actually answering them? Other than Souness, I can't remember a manager having so many goes at a player in public and it's not good for anybody that he does it. What he does and says in private and to the player is totally different. All he had to say in answer to the question is that he thought Obertan having pace was better at that time, or something like that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 HBA is miles ahead of almost all of our current players in terms of ability. The question is whether he fits into the system. My view is that he can, Pardew thinks it's better to go for a more conservative option. So far he's getting results, so I guess he can claim to be right. I still think now we're safe from relegation we may as well cut loose a bit more. But then again, if we got into the Champions League I would explode with excitement, so it depends. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 To be fair to Pardew, he is probably expected to come up with a reason as to why Ben Arfa didn't play every single time he is left out. Everyone knows he's one of our most talented players, so questions are asked. I'm sure he can answer questions without being so direct and he seems to go into some detail when answering them. We've had managers in the past who have been asked questions that they didn't want to answer and they didn't. How many times was Hughton asked about Carroll having a go at Taylor without actually answering them? Other than Souness, I can't remember a manager having so many goes at a player in public and it's not good for anybody that he does it. What he does and says in private and to the player is totally different. All he had to say in answer to the question is that he thought Obertan having pace was better at that time, or something like that. Fair enough. There must be a genuine reason behind doing it this way though IMO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Elliottman Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think its pretty much nailed on he'll be going in the summer. I mean comments like 'he isnt out of the picture yet'. Fucking Hell. Would you ever hear him say things like that about anyone else? Best for all parties he moves on. Too good to be sat on the bench. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlanSkÃrare Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 HBA is miles ahead of almost all of our current players in terms of ability. The question is whether he fits into the system. My view is that he can, Pardew thinks it's better to go for a more conservative option. So far he's getting results, so I guess he can claim to be right. I still think now we're safe from relegation we may as well cut loose a bit more. But then again, if we got into the Champions League I would explode with excitement, so it depends. I bet he finally gives in at Everton in May, Hatem looses the ball in the 92nd minute and they equalise and we finish fifth Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Fair enough. There must be a genuine reason behind doing it this way though IMO. I think the genuine reason is that he can't handle flair players and he knows the fans want to see him play so he's trying to turn the fans against the player, I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Surely he can speak to the player in training without going through the press, it's as if he's after a reaction. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hatem is a warrior. He will make himself indispensable before the end of the season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
High Five o Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hatem is a warrior. He will make himself indispensable before the end of the season. Hope so, i genuinely want this boy to succeed here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rocker Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 How can he get to grips with the Premier League on the bench? Stupid thing to say. If he had started at least 5/6 games in a row for the club, and shown no encouraging performances, then yes, drop him, but he hasn't even had a chance yet. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkhead Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Hatem is a warrior. He will make himself indispensable before the end of the season. Yep, I have no worries about him. IT IS A FACT ( ) that Hatem has played well, created chances and scored goals, despite (or thanks to) Pardew's treatment. He is determined to succeed here and time is on his side. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BottledDog Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Fair enough. There must be a genuine reason behind doing it this way though IMO. I think the genuine reason is that he can't handle flair players and he knows the fans want to see him play so he's trying to turn the fans against the player, I could be wrong but I don't think I am. Surely he can speak to the player in training without going through the press, it's as if he's after a reaction. I think there's no doubt he's after a reaction, but only from the player himself. The idea that he is trying to turn the fans against HBA is laughable imho. He clearly rates him ("unbelievable talent"), and wants to play him, maybe even going as far as to change the system to accommodate a player who he himself has said can be forgiven losing the ball as he gives us so much extra going forward. But having said all that, he seems to not be getting enough back from the lad to risk him at the moment and I cant argue too much after some of the performances he's put in (such as the first half against Blackburn) sadly. I hope to God that HBA proves whatever he needs to, or Pardew gives up to a degree and compromises sooner rather than later though; It would be a hell of a shame if it doesn't work out. He's the type of player you dream about pulling on the shirt for us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
traeir Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think he will be much more effective with Tiote, Cabaye and the Dembas in the team. He needs good players around him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghandis Flip-Flop Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 People keep going on about the first 45 against Blackburn. With the exception of Colo and Krul who played well during that time? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lush Vlad Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Has he started more than 3 games in a row for the club? Even then he's either got snapped in half or subbed at half time or near the end of the match. Man City, Man U, Chelsea. Fulham, Brighton, Blackburn. Everton, Stoke?, Man City. Just seems mental that he's never got a chance in a set position or over a period of games. If he gets 5-10 games in a row before the end of the season and looks poor, then fair enough. But we haven't seen enough of him to judge properly IMO. Especially when you take into account the injury, not used to the league, change in formation, players missing, style of play etc etc. Would like to think eventually he can fit in somewhere. Just hoping in private Pardew has asked for his patience until next season when we sign a better full back. Or sit tight until Tiote and Cabaye are back and he will see more game time. I couldn't believe it when we signed him and he is the sort of player fans pay good money to see. Fingers crossed it works out, you know he'd leave and end up being class for someone else Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ben Arfa will never "grasp the Premier League" if he's not playing in the fucker, give him a run of games and we'll see if he has or hasn't, a proper run of games not just 2-3 cameos and then drop him because he misplaced a pass. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 For those who think we've played nice football this season: don't kid yourselves. In terms of pass completion, our highest rated players are Colo and Tioté with 83.1%. They are ranked 84th in the league with that percentage. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 We've played some really good stuff at times this season, but IMO no more or less than we played last season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest reefatoon Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 For those who think we've played nice football this season: don't kid yourselves. In terms of pass completion, our highest rated players are Colo and Tioté with 83.1%. They are ranked 84th in the league with that percentage. Yes and putting Ben Arfa in the team will not turn us into 70's Brazil. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Krul has the second worst pass completion in the league (40%. Better than only Paul Robinson, who has 26%) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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