Beren Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Hm. Sounds like the last of our comeuppance from our failure to invest in the summer - and Gouffran's subsequent ineligibility for the Anzhi away trip. Pardew probably didn't want to play him, and given the lack of attacking intent we had - arguably didn't need to, but hindsight is 20-20. Frustrating for all parties concerned Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 this thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this fucking sucks. Felt off then, and it still feels off now. Again, if it was simply because Cisse was out then someone needs shooting. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Should have eased him in with sub appearances, massive gamble and its backfired. £25m + Carroll? Yes please. I'd rather rake my eyes out with a spoon. Bet you Carroll scores more goals than him next season. Plus + £25m spent on replacing a massive crock. Apart from the very high likely hood that he won't i would rather rake my eyes with a spoon than see Ben Arfa at Liverpool. If both players start and end next season at a premiership club ill bet our accounts here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Should have eased him in with sub appearances, massive gamble and its backfired. £25m + Carroll? Yes please. I'd rather rake my eyes out with a spoon. Bet you Carroll scores more goals than him next season. Plus + £25m spent on replacing a massive crock. What's your fixation with Carroll though? Surely there's better out there than him? You are also completely ignoring Carroll's own poor injury record. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dokko Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Should have eased him in with sub appearances, massive gamble and its backfired. £25m + Carroll? Yes please. I'd rather rake my eyes out with a spoon. Bet you Carroll scores more goals than him next season. Plus + £25m spent on replacing a massive crock. What's your fixation with Carroll though? Surely there's better out there than him? You are also completely ignoring Carroll's own poor injury record. No fixation, just believe he will be back here. If you had read previous comments I've said I'd rather have a winger/ striker to replace Ba than bring in Carroll but the manager needs the tools that suits him. Don't let that get in your way for having a go mind. That would be terrible. I'm not, just think hatem is worse. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this fucking sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this fucking sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Zero off the top of my head, but you don't need to have experience of a given flame you've not seen before being hot, to know you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it. FWIW, when he returns from injury, I probably wouldn't start HBA for 60 minutes against any opposition we happen to be facing at the time who also happen to ply their trade on any other unfamiliar surface where we know injuries can be aggravated/exacerbated (cf. Jonas/Shola). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Should have eased him in with sub appearances, massive gamble and its backfired. £25m + Carroll? Yes please. I'd rather rake my eyes out with a spoon. Bet you Carroll scores more goals than him next season. Plus + £25m spent on replacing a massive crock. What's your fixation with Carroll though? Surely there's better out there than him? You are also completely ignoring Carroll's own poor injury record. No fixation, just believe he will be back here. If you had read previous comments I've said I'd rather have a winger/ striker to replace Ba than bring in Carroll but the manager needs the tools that suits him. Don't let that get in your way for having a go mind. That would be terrible. I'm not, just think hatem is worse. I wasn't having a go I was just offering my opinion. I genuinely apologise if it came across that way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 We won't get anywhere near £25 million for him. It's worth perservering and trying to get the player we all know he can be than cashing in and (failing) to try and buy a better option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this fucking sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Zero off the top of my head, but you don't need to have experience of a given flame you've not seen before being hot, to know you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it. FWIW, when he returns from injury, I probably wouldn't start HBA for 60 minutes against any opposition we happen to be facing at the time who also happen to ply their trade on any other unfamiliar surface where we know injuries can be aggravated/exacerbated (cf. Jonas/Shola). He played most of the game against Tottenham though at the start of the season and looked excellent, I don't really think it matters about how long you play or the surface if you are physically fit ("match fit" just being how sharp you are)? I'm not a physio therapist like, but that's how I've always seen it, and I don't think a player should be playing AT ALL if he isn't fully recovered from his injury, regardless of the pitch and temperature. To me it looks like we've believed the injury was gone, and regardless of whether he played 60 minutes in Russia or 20 minutes in the Bahamas there was always going to be an unseen risk of him aggravating his hamstring. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledGeordie Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Pardew just said in an interview with Lowes on total sport saying Ben Arfa had had all the fitness tests, the medical team had done the scans and he'd had uninterrupted training of more than 2 weeks leading up to the away leg in Russia. So he'd been given clearance to play as nothing was showing to suggest he shouldn't. Just sounds to me like one of those unfortunate things, nobody to blame, the injury is just a really complex bugger of an injury that's all. Until the lad plays and you see how the muscle responds you'll never know. It's not like he came off in trouble and was apparently walking around fine after the match. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Branko Strupar Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this f***ing sucks. Felt off then, and it still feels off now. Again, if it was simply because Cisse was out then someone needs shooting. Ah its all a conspiracy. Pards doesn't want him to play in the run in, hence putting Hatem in against Anzhi. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beren Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this fucking sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Zero off the top of my head, but you don't need to have experience of a given flame you've not seen before being hot, to know you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it. FWIW, when he returns from injury, I probably wouldn't start HBA for 60 minutes against any opposition we happen to be facing at the time who also happen to ply their trade on any other unfamiliar surface where we know injuries can be aggravated/exacerbated (cf. Jonas/Shola). He played most of the game against Tottenham though at the start of the season and looked excellent, I don't really think it matters about how long you play or the surface if you are physically fit ("match fit" just being how sharp you are)? I'm not a physio therapist like, but that's how I've always seen it, and I don't think a player should be playing AT ALL if he isn't fully recovered from his injury, regardless of the pitch an temperature. To me it looks like we've thought the injury was gone, and regardless of whether he played 60 minutes in Russia or 20 minutes in the Bahamas there was always going to be an unseen risk of him aggravating his hamstring. Mate, it's all a bit of a moot non-argument for me. Like you, I'm no physiotherapist (and I'd be happy enough for someone with the relevant knowledge to stick their oar in and set me straight if need be) and I'd also be in favour of veering on the side of caution in not letting injured players play if they're in the least injured, but even when players recover from injury - starting matches is uncommon. They have cameo appearances off the bench to build fitness in a real-tempo environment, and to recover sharpness. I don't think I'd be wrong to say it's at least uncommon for players to return from injury in such a manner, starting a game. You can't reduce the risk of re-aggravating an injury to nil, but I'd say you could certainly mitigate the chances more than we did. As for the surface, I'm not agree - but again, have no scientific expertise to back me up on this. My friend, who is a fairly serious cross-country runner, told me to run on grass instead of on the pavement around my park because with each step we take, we apparently put three times our bodyweight on our knee-joints when we run on concrete. He may be talking bollocks, it may not be applicable to HBA etc etc,..... but it doesn't seem unfathomable to me that the surface you play/run on could contribute to the wear and tear of our bodies In which case, with my overly-cautious approach, I would probably say "why risk it?" I accept we were possibly backed into a corner by Cisse being injured though. Anyway, not going to bother discussing about it any further, all a bit depressing/pointless mulling over it now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledGeordie Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this f***ing sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Zero off the top of my head, but you don't need to have experience of a given flame you've not seen before being hot, to know you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it. FWIW, when he returns from injury, I probably wouldn't start HBA for 60 minutes against any opposition we happen to be facing at the time who also happen to ply their trade on any other unfamiliar surface where we know injuries can be aggravated/exacerbated (cf. Jonas/Shola). He played most of the game against Tottenham though at the start of the season and looked excellent, I don't really think it matters about how long you play or the surface if you are physically fit ("match fit" just being how sharp you are)? I'm not a physio therapist like, but that's how I've always seen it, and I don't think a player should be playing AT ALL if he isn't fully recovered from his injury, regardless of the pitch an temperature. To me it looks like we've thought the injury was gone, and regardless of whether he played 60 minutes in Russia or 20 minutes in the Bahamas there was always going to be an unseen risk of him aggravating his hamstring. Mate, it's all a bit of a moot non-argument for me. Like you, I'm no physiotherapist (and I'd be happy enough for someone with the relevant knowledge to stick their oar in and set me straight if need be) and I'd also be in favour of veering on the side of caution in not letting injured players play if they're in the least injured, but even when players recover from injury - starting matches is uncommon. They have cameo appearances off the bench to build fitness in a real-tempo environment, and to recover sharpness. I don't think I'd be wrong to say it's at least uncommon for players to return from injury in such a manner, starting a game. You can't reduce the risk of re-aggravating an injury to nil, but I'd say you could certainly mitigate the chances more than we did. As for the surface, I'm not agree - but again, have no scientific expertise to back me up on this. My friend, who is a fairly serious cross-country runner, told me to run on grass instead of on the pavement around my park because with each step we take, we apparently put three times our bodyweight on our knee-joints when we run on concrete. He may be talking bollocks, it may not be applicable to HBA etc etc,..... but it doesn't seem unfathomable to me that the surface you play/run on could contribute to the wear and tear of our bodies I accept we were possibly back into a corner by Cisse being injured though. Anyway, not going to bother discussing about it any further, all a bit depressing/pointless mulling over it now. I'll ask my MSK Physio tutor at Northumbria next week at Uni Beren and get his take on it. We did talk about his injury when it first happened and he was saying what a bugger they are to deal with because they're so unpredictable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this fucking sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Zero off the top of my head, but you don't need to have experience of a given flame you've not seen before being hot, to know you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it. FWIW, when he returns from injury, I probably wouldn't start HBA for 60 minutes against any opposition we happen to be facing at the time who also happen to ply their trade on any other unfamiliar surface where we know injuries can be aggravated/exacerbated (cf. Jonas/Shola). He played most of the game against Tottenham though at the start of the season and looked excellent, I don't really think it matters about how long you play or the surface if you are physically fit ("match fit" just being how sharp you are)? I'm not a physio therapist like, but that's how I've always seen it, and I don't think a player should be playing AT ALL if he isn't fully recovered from his injury, regardless of the pitch an temperature. To me it looks like we've thought the injury was gone, and regardless of whether he played 60 minutes in Russia or 20 minutes in the Bahamas there was always going to be an unseen risk of him aggravating his hamstring. Mate, it's all a bit of a moot non-argument for me. Like you, I'm no physiotherapist (and I'd be happy enough for someone with the relevant knowledge to stick their oar in and set me straight if need be) and I'd also be in favour of veering on the side of caution in not letting injured players play if they're in the least injured, but even when players recover from injury - starting matches is uncommon. They have cameo appearances off the bench to build fitness in a real-tempo environment, and to recover sharpness. I don't think I'd be wrong to say it's at least uncommon for players to return from injury in such a manner, starting a game. You can't reduce the risk of re-aggravating an injury to nil, but I'd say you could certainly mitigate the chances more than we did. As for the surface, I'm not agree - but again, have no scientific expertise to back me up on this. My friend, who is a fairly serious cross-country runner, told me to run on grass instead of on the pavement around my park because with each step we take, we apparently put three times our bodyweight on our knee-joints when we run on concrete. He may be talking bollocks, it may not be applicable to HBA etc etc,..... but it doesn't seem unfathomable to me that the surface you play/run on could contribute to the wear and tear of our bodies I accept we were possibly backed into a corner by Cisse being injured though. Anyway, not going to bother discussing about it any further, all a bit depressing/pointless mulling over it now. aye fair enough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Away Toon Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Any way anybody wants to look at it, flying to Russia and back and playing on a plastic pitch in the freezing cold was just dumb. Pardew can make all the excuses he wants but stupid is stupid. At least with him being injured it's less likely that somebody will come ion and try and buy him. As for his theoretical value, he doesn't play enough to be really worth a lot. Probably what we paid for him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanji Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Trained medical professionals said he was fine to play. He did. He further aggravated it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan_Taylor Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Trained medical professionals said he was fine to play. He did. He further aggravated it. Shhhh you're supposed to blame Pardew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest fraser Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Any way anybody wants to look at it, flying to Russia and back and playing on a plastic pitch in the freezing cold was just dumb. Pardew can make all the excuses he wants but stupid is stupid. At least with him being injured it's less likely that somebody will come ion and try and buy him. As for his theoretical value, he doesn't play enough to be really worth a lot. Probably what we paid for him. I've never seen him look so awkward as he did on that pitch. He went gingerly (no offence to AC). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledGeordie Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Trained medical professionals said he was fine to play. He did. He further aggravated it. I accept it seems strange he started the match away in Russia but you make it sound like complete incompetence from the medical team. If the up to date scans have been done and show nothing, the player's reporting no problems in training consistently then I don't see what else they could've done really. They've followed normal guidelines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 I don't know how the decision tree worked for HBA starting away at Anzhi, or indeed if all possible roads would eventually have lead to him needing further surgery, but... ...I've never seen a player start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff. I'd love to hear Pardew's explanation, but I doubt we will. Anyway, this f***ing sucks. Out of interest, how many players do you know who have had the opportunity to "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff."? Other than of course players who ply their trade in countries like Russia, and therefore will indeed "start for 60 minutes away from home in sub-zero temperatures on a dodgy surface as their return game back from a lengthy layoff." Zero off the top of my head, but you don't need to have experience of a given flame you've not seen before being hot, to know you probably shouldn't stick your hand in it. FWIW, when he returns from injury, I probably wouldn't start HBA for 60 minutes against any opposition we happen to be facing at the time who also happen to ply their trade on any other unfamiliar surface where we know injuries can be aggravated/exacerbated (cf. Jonas/Shola). He played most of the game against Tottenham though at the start of the season and looked excellent, I don't really think it matters about how long you play or the surface if you are physically fit ("match fit" just being how sharp you are)? I'm not a physio therapist like, but that's how I've always seen it, and I don't think a player should be playing AT ALL if he isn't fully recovered from his injury, regardless of the pitch an temperature. To me it looks like we've thought the injury was gone, and regardless of whether he played 60 minutes in Russia or 20 minutes in the Bahamas there was always going to be an unseen risk of him aggravating his hamstring. Mate, it's all a bit of a moot non-argument for me. Like you, I'm no physiotherapist (and I'd be happy enough for someone with the relevant knowledge to stick their oar in and set me straight if need be) and I'd also be in favour of veering on the side of caution in not letting injured players play if they're in the least injured, but even when players recover from injury - starting matches is uncommon. They have cameo appearances off the bench to build fitness in a real-tempo environment, and to recover sharpness. I don't think I'd be wrong to say it's at least uncommon for players to return from injury in such a manner, starting a game. You can't reduce the risk of re-aggravating an injury to nil, but I'd say you could certainly mitigate the chances more than we did. As for the surface, I'm not agree - but again, have no scientific expertise to back me up on this. My friend, who is a fairly serious cross-country runner, told me to run on grass instead of on the pavement around my park because with each step we take, we apparently put three times our bodyweight on our knee-joints when we run on concrete. He may be talking bollocks, it may not be applicable to HBA etc etc,..... but it doesn't seem unfathomable to me that the surface you play/run on could contribute to the wear and tear of our bodies I accept we were possibly backed into a corner by Cisse being injured though. Anyway, not going to bother discussing about it any further, all a bit depressing/pointless mulling over it now. aye fair enough. fairly sure there was an article about the time we had drunken duncan with that german woman (kind of the european Spearman....it was spearman that bellamy went to in the states wasn't it ?) when she said that sometimes the only way to find out about some sorts of injuries is to try them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spudil Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 There are a good amount of studies on the 'dangers' of artificial pitches vs natural grass and there has been nothing remotely significant found. Slight increase in the chance of ankle injuries and even that requires more study before anything conclusive can be said. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ItalianMagpie Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 Every time a medical staff is doubtful or "undecided" about a surgery more often than not it ends up becoming necessary before or later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest icemanblue Posted March 15, 2013 Share Posted March 15, 2013 There are a good amount of studies on the 'dangers' of artificial pitches vs natural grass and there has been nothing remotely significant found. Slight increase in the chance of ankle injuries and even that requires more study before anything conclusive can be said. Aye, aye. But, you're forgetting that it was cold. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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