tmonkey Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Everton were one of the dirtiest sides I've seen in Premiership football in the initial years under Moyes, beaten only by Mark Hughes' Blackburn who were very clearly instructed to kick lumps out of the opposition. That's something that shouldn't be overlooked, especially since, truth be told, Goodison Park can be a much more intimidating ground for referees than St James' (which meant over the years refs being quick to overlook many of the nasty late tackles from the likes of Phil Neville, Cahill, Carsley, etc etc). The relevance being here that whilst beggars can't be choosers, and whilst he undoubtedly did a great job overall for Everton over his entire time there, I think it's fair to question and analyse Moyes rather than simply saying "finished top 6 for X years with Everton, we can't turn nose up at him ffs". There's an obvious risk with him because he's shown at Manchester United that he's not a manager who implements a vision on the training ground that equates to a slick, creative side on match days, which is what many ambitious fans desire in a manager these days (given the comparative success of the likes of Pochettino, Martinez, Rodgers, etc, with Wenger and Guardiola being the extreme examples) - instead I'd argue he's someone who has proven that he can motivate a team of cloggers into bullying the opposition, and then slowly and gradually supersede that reliance on cloggers by buying the right players who fit into his vision/mould and who compliment or replace the cloggers, adding a bit of quality on top of the work rate. The risk referred to is that we don't have decent cloggers here, so he'd have to buy them (telling the likes of Tiote, Anita, MBwia, Saylor, Williamson, Debuchy, etc etc, to get stuck in will just result in red cards and penalties conceded galore). We are also likely to (a) not sign the players he'd want who suit his vision, because we have Graham Carr scouting some excellent talent for bargain prices but who don't necessarily fit any kind of profile, and (b) would probably sell a key player that Moyes' system would be based around for profit (e.g. Fellaini, who if you removed from last year's Everton and failed to replace with e.g. a Lukaku, would probably result in them being mid table at best). In terms of "if not Moyes then who?", again, we are beggars under Ashley, and if Pardew does get sacked we're likely to end up with someone nearly as bad and just as obscure (Venables, Pulis, Hoddle, Curbishley, whoever), in which case Moyes would obviously be miles better. But we need a very specific type of manager otherwise we're likely to be back in the same position because the manager is struggling as he can't get the squad he has to play anything resembling decent football, can't get the players he wants, the players he needs and does have get sold from under him and so his exceptionally limited "gameplan" falls apart very easily, etc etc. The aforementioned sought after type who do their work on the training ground and get the team passing and moving as a unit, are what we need because they're the type who'll fare better with our "policy" of signing and selling players, and would make better use of the current squad. Whilst we obviously can't attract a Martinez or Rodgers or possibly even a Laudrup (he'll have offers), I'm sure if Ashley just wanted it he'd be able to land the ones who share that type of footballing philosophy, albeit someone who would be desperate enough for a Premiership job. Martinez, Rodgers, Pochettino, Wenger, Guardiola, Jurgen Klopp, whoever, they all came from somewhere small, they were all plucked out of obscurity from somewhere by a top flight club, so logically there's got to be more of these types out there who aren't in a top level job but would take one if the chance came their way. It's just that our owner unfortunately is an utter arrogant plank. I realise this is all hypothetical pipe dream stuff, but the point here was just to justify why doubts about Moyes, even in our ridiculous position under Ashley, are at the very least reasonable. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachikoma Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I fucking hate Pardew, like. I don't think I wish him any harm, think there's been a few harsh posts along those lines over the past few days. But I know one thing for sure. We're shit, it's his fault. After the two years of torment he's inflicted on us, I... would like to see him harmed. Chinese water torture would be a good start. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Moyes had 10 or so successful years at Everton, man. Is that right? So what were his successful achievements as the Everton manager? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Other than the gilet? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Moyes had 10 or so successful years at Everton, man. Is that right? So what were his successful achievements as the Everton manager? Ah howay man, wait for Ronaldo to log on again. Everton went about 5 transfer windows without spending any money whatsoever and he still had them top-6. And he actually appeared to have some involvement in signing the players and developing them. Players like Cahill, Arteta, Piennar, Baines, Fellaini etc. It's incredible how much people have forgotten in less than 12 months, aye Moyes didn't seem the natural choice for Man Utd at the time but most felt he was deserving of a shot at it, due to the excellent job he'd done at Everton. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Belfast Mags Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Funny how Moyes is the proven one when its Martinez with the trophy to his name. Indeed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRon Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Because he's failed to convince Spurs to make his appointment permanent. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan_Taylor Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Seems Moyes Everton tenure was pretty much exactly what Ashley is looking for. Long term top 10 finishes with not much spend and no trophies. Bliss. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest neesy111 Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Because he's failed to convince Spurs to make his appointment permanent. His appointment is permanent, has a contract for next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Other than the gilet? Point deductions for that and the salute, yes. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Funny how Moyes is the proven one when its Martinez with the trophy to his name. Indeed McLeish & Souness won domestic trophies, Keegan didn't. Shite argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Because he's failed to convince Spurs to make his appointment permanent. His appointment is permanent, has a contract for next season. On the other hand, he's definitely just about to be sacked. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachikoma Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Moyes had 10 or so successful years at Everton, man. Is that right? So what were his successful achievements as the Everton manager? Ah howay man, wait for Ronaldo to log on again. Everton went about 5 transfer windows without spending any money whatsoever and he still had them top-6. And he actually appeared to have some involvement in signing the players and developing them. Players like Cahill, Arteta, Piennar, Baines, Fellaini etc. It's incredible how much people have forgotten in less than 12 months, aye Moyes didn't seem the natural choice for Man Utd at the time but most felt he was deserving of a shot at it, due to the excellent job he'd done at Everton. The only reason I wouldn't necessarily want Moyes here is Hatem Ben Arfa, and Neil's accounts on how Moyes isn't the biggest fan of flair. But since that ship has most likely sailed already, why the hell not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Funny how Moyes is the proven one when its Martinez with the trophy to his name. In the context of building a good Premier League side, there's only one proven one. Alex McLeish won a trophy, is he more proven than Moyes? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neil Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Moyes had 10 or so successful years at Everton, man. Is that right? So what were his successful achievements as the Everton manager? Ah howay man, wait for Ronaldo to log on again. Everton went about 5 transfer windows without spending any money whatsoever and he still had them top-6. And he actually appeared to have some involvement in signing the players and developing them. Players like Cahill, Arteta, Piennar, Baines, Fellaini etc. It's incredible how much people have forgotten in less than 12 months, aye Moyes didn't seem the natural choice for Man Utd at the time but most felt he was deserving of a shot at it, due to the excellent job he'd done at Everton. The only reason I wouldn't necessarily want Moyes here is Hatem Ben Arfa, and Neil's accounts on how Moyes isn't the biggest fan of flair. But since that ship has most likely sailed already, why the hell not. One thing I do know is I certainly don't think he would be ostracised to the extent he is now, nowhere near. Makes absolutely no sense and it isn't to anyone's benefit. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Flash Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 More to the point, why is Sherwood a failure? Because he's failed to convince Spurs to make his appointment permanent. They're only 7 points off 4th so to say he has failed is blatant exaggeration. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryan_Taylor Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 Haven't heard Moyes blame every defeat on Kagawa this season. That kind of treatment for Hatem would do Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 One thing I do know is I certainly don't think he would be ostracised to the extent he is now, nowhere near. Makes absolutely no sense and it isn't to anyone's benefit. Of course it is, he's been used as a scapegoat for Pardew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 My early memories of Everton in the Premier League were them hovering around the relegation spots and nearly going down in some cases btw, I know historically they've been a far bigger club than that but Moyes cut short a significant slide and built them into consistent top-6 side for the best part of a decade, with fuck-all money. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I remember one of Walter Smith's last games being a shocking dry hump at Boro in the cup. They were abysmal and heading for relegation. Moyes transformed the whole club. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tachikoma Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 My early memories of Everton in the Premier League were them hovering around the relegation spots and nearly going down in some cases btw, I know historically they've been a far bigger club than that but Moyes cut short a significant slide and built them into consistent top-6 side for the best part of a decade, with fuck-all money. Which sounds very much like us right now. If we somehow get our hands on him, I hope he still has the hunger to do it all over again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 tmonkey nailed it tbh. Moyes wouldn't touch a club with our transfer policy. He did very much change his style of play between the beginning and end of his Everton career, but changed it on the extremely solid base he'd built himself. It's a very interesting question of can he repeat that at another club, and how would he need to go about it? It's a complete myth that he had nowt to spend for most of his tenure mind. The numbers say otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 I remember one of Walter Smith's last games being a shocking dry hump at Boro in the cup. They were abysmal and heading for relegation. Moyes transformed the whole club. Moyes joined them in March 2002 and they ended up finishing 15th that year, the seasons prior to that they finished: 00/01 - 16th 99/00 - 13th 98/99 - 14th 97/98 - 17th 96/97 - 15th 95/96 - 6th 94/95 - 15th (out of 22) 93/94 - 17th (out of 22) 92/93 - 13th (out of 22) Almost a decade of mostly struggling against relegation followed by almost a decade of mainly top-6 finishes. He did an amazing job there. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted April 21, 2014 Share Posted April 21, 2014 tmonkey nailed it tbh. Moyes wouldn't touch a club with our transfer policy. He did very much change his style of play between the beginning and end of his Everton career, but changed it on the extremely solid base he'd built himself. It's a very interesting question of can he repeat that, and how? It's a complete myth that he had nowt to spend for most of his tenure mind. The numbers say otherwise. Which numbers? I know he spent canny fairly big on a few players but there were some big incoming fees and long stretches where they signed nobody at all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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