Jonjo Shelvey (now playing for Çaykur Rizespor, on loan from Nottingham Forest)

[Beren]

Imagine bringing on Dier rather than Shelvey.

[Guest ElCid]

We saw today exactly why Shelvey should have been in that squad

[Odear]

We saw today exactly why Shelvey should have been in that squad

 

Yeap. All the arrogance was starting to show when they hadn’t really played anyone of note.

 

No creativity in midfield.

 

But they looked wrecked. I’d wonder how this could effect a number of the top teams for the first few months of the PL, they’ll have a number of so called top players underperforming.

 

Could give clubs like us a chance to get a solid start.

[Colos Short and Curlies]

We saw today exactly why Shelvey should have been in that squad

 

Yeap. All the arrogance was starting to show when they hadn’t really played anyone of note.

 

No creativity in midfield.

 

But they looked wrecked. I’d wonder how this could effect a number of the top teams for the first few months of the PL, they’ll have a number of so called top players underperforming.

 

Could give clubs like us a chance to get a solid start.

 

I wonder if there is any correlation there, especially after a tough defeat in a semi.

 

Can imagine the Spurs lot will be dead on their feet and in the head, wouldn't be surprised if none of them play first game

[tmonkey]

As much as a quarterback style passing CM can, Shelvey just had a season where he fucking decimated at least half the teams in this league through ridiculous passing ability alone, and this in a relatively dire/low quality side going forward. As I said, insane to not take him, to not even try him.

 

Southgate is just another false dawn mong manager in a long list of mong managers operating in the UK, even more so with his dickhead goodie two shoes retarded waistcoat act the goofy rat faced mother fucker. Bet he didn't even see Shelvey play the entire season, and was too scared to handle a potentially difficult player which requires man management (Pards anyone? World Cup semi final = 5th anyone?). Went for the players at the bigger clubs (Delph Man City, Dier Spurs, Rose Spurs, etc) even if they'd done literally nothing in recent seasons and country miles less than Shelvey has, and then dick rides on the back of this supposed "faith in young blood" nonsense when the truth is there's no real options in the 26/27+ category as everyone has either retired or gone way over the hill. Got lucky this tournament with the draw, didn't beat a single good side, and he'll probably fuck up Euro 2020 with more shitty selections as I bet the likes of France/Spain/Italy/Germany will come back stronger.

 

Anyways, same old.

[Infinitely Content]

It obviously was a bad decision not to take the best passer of the ball in the country, but tbf I'm not sure he would have made much of an impact in the tournament. Southgate had a clear plan (to his credit) and seemed undeterred. Dier replacing Henderson would have likely still been the preferred sub for better or worse. Delph next in line, so I won't sweat it too much.

 

Shelvey, I imagine, will be watching from home even more motivated to show up his midfield national counterparts this season and ensure he's in that squad for the Euros.

[Big Geordie]

Would have made a real difference tonight, had he been in the squad. England's loss and Newcastle's gain.

[Rod]

If anyone can be bothered, watch the game again.  Henderson was atrocious.  He has the 3/5 yard pass backwards or sideways that is always 100% perfect.  His forward passes are quite comical.  They normally go out of play or to the opposition.  Some of his fans will point to his "workrate".  This workrate is useless without a conclusion.  What I mean is he hasn't a clue what to do next, do I move with the ball (highly unlikely), take a shot at goal (prolific), make a killing pass (I'm pissing myself now) or ........ you've got it pass it 2 yards sideways.  He couldn't lace Shelvey's boots.

[STM]

If anyone can be bothered, watch the game again.  Henderson was atrocious.  He has the 3/5 yard pass backwards or sideways that is always 100% perfect.  His forward passes are quite comical.  They normally go out of play or to the opposition.  Some of his fans will point to his "workrate".  This workrate is useless without a conclusion.  What I mean is he hasn't a clue what to do next, do I move with the ball (highly unlikely), take a shot at goal (prolific), make a killing pass (I'm pissing myself now) or ........ you've got it pass it 2 yards sideways.  He couldn't lace Shelvey's boots.

 

I like Shelvey but this post is atrocious. Henderson is a fantastic player.

[magorific]

If anyone can be bothered, watch the game again.  Henderson was atrocious.  He has the 3/5 yard pass backwards or sideways that is always 100% perfect.  His forward passes are quite comical.  They normally go out of play or to the opposition.  Some of his fans will point to his "workrate".  This workrate is useless without a conclusion.  What I mean is he hasn't a clue what to do next, do I move with the ball (highly unlikely), take a shot at goal (prolific), make a killing pass (I'm pissing myself now) or ........ you've got it pass it 2 yards sideways.  He couldn't lace Shelvey's boots.

 

I like Shelvey but this post is atrocious. Henderson is a fantastic player.

 

Fantastic? He's a good player, but not world class - as last night showed.

 

[Rod]

We obviously watch different football.

[Guest firetotheworks]

 

 

If anyone can be bothered, watch the game again.  Henderson was atrocious.  He has the 3/5 yard pass backwards or sideways that is always 100% perfect.  His forward passes are quite comical.  They normally go out of play or to the opposition.  Some of his fans will point to his "workrate".  This workrate is useless without a conclusion.  What I mean is he hasn't a clue what to do next, do I move with the ball (highly unlikely), take a shot at goal (prolific), make a killing pass (I'm pissing myself now) or ........ you've got it pass it 2 yards sideways.  He couldn't lace Shelvey's boots.

 

Another member of the clueless I Don't Watch Liverpool Brigade. Henderson had a poor match and you're using it to say who he is all the time.

[Tiresias]

Shelvey would definitely have helped brought off the bench yesterday like, we were not connected forward to Kane at all. Henderson, I don't really get him as a player but guess he harries opposition and keeps ball rolling enough for the manager, but our lack of midfield options was horrific

[mrmojorisin75]

i don't think he would have been the answer yesterday ironically enough, i said before the tournament that i'd have taken him as an option to change the system sitting deep using pace on the break with shelvey's passing range

 

southgate had no intention of changing the system and everyone looked totally fucked as it was, i think we'd have needed to invite croatia onto us and had sterling + vardy supporting kane to make it work

[Mr Logic]

I think the clearest thing I learnt from the England/Southgate show was Southgate has stipulated a system to be followed and has no alternative.

 

That's not good, if you stick to one system you better make sure you are the fucking best at it or other teams will find a way to curtail you. Always need a Plan B and none was apparent.

 

My biggest fear is Southgate's ego will never let him consider Shelvey because he turned down an opportunity to play for the under 23's (21's?) after having making a senior appearance.

That would be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

[Beren]

He's a Boro guy. Nee way Shelvey gets a look in.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I think the clearest thing I learnt from the England/Southgate show was Southgate has stipulated a system to be followed and has no alternative.

 

That's not good, if you stick to one system you better make sure you are the fucking best at it or other teams will find a way to curtail you. Always need a Plan B and none was apparent.

 

My biggest fear is Southgate's ego will never let him consider Shelvey because he turned down an opportunity to play for the under 23's (21's?) after having making a senior appearance.

That would be cutting your nose off to spite your face.

 

My response to a similar train of thought in the WC forum...

 

that quote is correct but to be honest my issue with the way we played once they took control was that it was aimless long ball, said before the tournament he'd not be able to play that way the entire time and should have a plan to revert to a tight system that can play on the break a la peak leicester when necessary...not aimless long panic balls but targetted direct passes into the channels to work their back line with the pace of vardy/sterling/rashford etc.

 

he chose to stick to the same system and it feel apart, he deserves a lot of credit for that imo but i hope he learns from it as we're not going to outplay every team all the time

 

I’m hopeful that a plan B will come in time. Remember he is still learning himself and the focus when he took over was simply to qualify which we did.

 

It as only following that did he start changing things and he did say before the tournament he wanted us to play a certain way and won’t deviate from that.

 

That way if you like too us to the semis and we came up short and a plan b might have saw us overcome that.

 

He has all the time in the world to work on that and other issues and I think he’s capable of fixing things as he and the players get more experience and the pool,of,players to choose from grows.

 

This is a work in progress, we are nowhere near the finished article and may never be, but we have taken big strides it cannot be denied.

 

All that said, Kane puts his chance away and we could be taking England as a Finalst. Fine margins. I hope he sticks with the way we are trying to play though and work on getting better and better at it because it will work as we have shown in this tournament with the players we have.

[steve_69]

If i were England manager (and there are many very good reasons why i'm not) I'd take players purely to implement a plan B. Play your possession, neat passing football as your plan A and when that doesn't work, bring on Andy Carroll, Shelvey and our best typical winger and bombard the opposition. Small tweaks of systems rarely have a dramatic impact, but look at what Belgium did to Japan when they brought on Fellaini and started putting the ball in the box. For some reason they stuck with their plan A for 95 minutes against France and got knocked out?!

In Carroll, we have arguably one of the best attacking headers of a ball in world football so why not use him (if he can stay fit). It's like we're scared to revert to effective old school tactics for fear of being labelled a long-ball team, but I say play to your strengths. I'd rather go out of a competition trying something drastic than going out with a whimper because our plan B was more of plan A. 

[HawK]

If i were England manager (and there are many very good reasons why i'm not) I'd take players purely to implement a plan B. Play your possession, neat passing football as your plan A and when that doesn't work, bring on Andy Carroll, Shelvey and our best typical winger and bombard the opposition. Small tweaks of systems rarely have a dramatic impact, but look at what Belgium did to Japan when they brought on Fellaini and started putting the ball in the box. For some reason they stuck with their plan A for 95 minutes against France and got knocked out?!

In Carroll, we have arguably one of the best attacking headers of a ball in world football so why not use him (if he can stay fit). It's like we're scared to revert to effective old school tactics for fear of being labelled a long-ball team, but I say play to your strengths. I'd rather go out of a competition trying something drastic than going out with a whimper because our plan B was more of plan A. 

 

Same view here, would like to see a fit AC, Shelvey and in years gone by, Defoe would have been in pretty much every squad. He was horrendously underused.

[loki679]

I wouldn't necessarily make it Carroll though, Vardy would probably be a better option for the types of passes Shelvey can deliver.  The two of them up top with Shelvey either threading balls through or playing it out wide for the winger to cross would be the best bet in that scenario though.

[steve_69]

I wouldn't necessarily make it Carroll though, Vardy would probably be a better option for the types of passes Shelvey can deliver.  The two of them up top with Shelvey either threading balls through or playing it out wide for the winger to cross would be the best bet in that scenario though.

 

It'd just be more of the same with Vardy though. I'm talking about a proper shock n' awe plan B where we literally say fuck it, let's send on the biggest, most aggressive centre forward we have and go old school Stoke-style for twenty minutes - Trippier and a winger banging in crosses from the flanks, Shelvey knocking them in the box early from the centre and our frontline bullying the shit out of their defenders. If we knew it was plan B and for most of the game we'd be trying to play decent football, i reckon the fans and players would accept it.

[Rupert Pupkin]

I wouldn't necessarily make it Carroll though, Vardy would probably be a better option for the types of passes Shelvey can deliver.  The two of them up top with Shelvey either threading balls through or playing it out wide for the winger to cross would be the best bet in that scenario though.

 

It'd just be more of the same with Vardy though. I'm talking about a proper shock n' awe plan B where we literally say fuck it, let's send on the biggest, most aggressive centre forward we have and go old school Stoke-style for twenty minutes - Trippier and a winger banging in crosses from the flanks, Shelvey knocking them in the box early from the centre and our frontline bullying the shit out of their defenders. If we knew it was plan B and for most of the game we'd be trying to play decent football, i reckon the fans and players would accept it.

 

What an utterly depressing scenario this is. England need a plan B, but not one inspired by Pulis. How can anyone watch Maguire and Stones in this World Cup and think we need to "get it in the mixer?" Is this a joke that's gone straight over my head?

[xLiaaamx]

So how many games this season till someone proclaims he should never play for us again?

[loki679]

I wouldn't necessarily make it Carroll though, Vardy would probably be a better option for the types of passes Shelvey can deliver.  The two of them up top with Shelvey either threading balls through or playing it out wide for the winger to cross would be the best bet in that scenario though.

 

It'd just be more of the same with Vardy though. I'm talking about a proper shock n' awe plan B where we literally say fuck it, let's send on the biggest, most aggressive centre forward we have and go old school Stoke-style for twenty minutes - Trippier and a winger banging in crosses from the flanks, Shelvey knocking them in the box early from the centre and our frontline bullying the shit out of their defenders. If we knew it was plan B and for most of the game we'd be trying to play decent football, i reckon the fans and players would accept it.

 

Round here we call that 'The Allardyce'

[steve_69]

I wouldn't necessarily make it Carroll though, Vardy would probably be a better option for the types of passes Shelvey can deliver.  The two of them up top with Shelvey either threading balls through or playing it out wide for the winger to cross would be the best bet in that scenario though.

 

It'd just be more of the same with Vardy though. I'm talking about a proper shock n' awe plan B where we literally say fuck it, let's send on the biggest, most aggressive centre forward we have and go old school Stoke-style for twenty minutes - Trippier and a winger banging in crosses from the flanks, Shelvey knocking them in the box early from the centre and our frontline bullying the shit out of their defenders. If we knew it was plan B and for most of the game we'd be trying to play decent football, i reckon the fans and players would accept it.

 

What an utterly depressing scenario this is. England need a plan B, but not one inspired by Pulis. How can anyone watch Maguire and Stones in this World Cup and think we need to "get it in the mixer?" Is this a joke that's gone straight over my head?

 

Depressing! How so?

When it came down to it, against the one team with anything about them, we had no plan B. Our plan B was more of plan A but with different players and we got beaten.

Even Belgium, arguably the best footballing team in the competition, went direct against Japan and it led to them winning the game.

The other criticism you can level against this England team is that for all the possession we had, we didn't create enough chances from open play. If you can't go round them and you can't go through them, what's the next best option to try - the same thing again or something different?