Rafa Benítez (now unemployed)

[Guest reefatoon]

After the chances we had created in the first half, I was shocked then annoyed at the fact that about 30mins in, they had possession stats up and Swansea had more of the ball at 52% to our 48%. So it’s clearly a tactic we adhere to of giving the opposition more of the ball, getting plenty bodies back and letting them lose it and then us trying to counter. If people can’t see that and always think it’s just folks slagging off Rafa for nothing, then they are the ones being stupid. Blaming the fans too ffs (heron give your head a wobble for that one like). Ridiculous. I don’t want Rafa to leave at all, but like I said, I can never warm to that kind of football at home where you allow teams to have the ball. If it gets results, all well and good and I would have to say, even though it is not enjoyable or good to watch, it works with these shite players, but the problem is, it just isn’t working, and we spend the time letting shit teams grow in confidence.

[Dave]

I'm still confident it's a temporary solution given the players we have and the objective for this season.

 

We've gone back to the tactics that got us results early on in the season. It worked then and it's working now, even if it doesn't always feel like it.

[TRon]

I honestly think our best chance of staying up is Rafa and his boring defensive football. We haven't got the strikers to risk playing an attacking game, and usually the weaker teams who are at least well organised, are the ones that stand a better chance of staying up. The talk about must win games is pointless at this stage of the season. We need 16 more points, we got another one today, could have been better, but at least we got one.

I thought that last season some over ‘restricted’ defensive set-ups at home almost cost us the Championship title. This season I fear the same may cost us Premier League survival. If Rafa was playing pontoon, I reckon he would almost always stick rather than twist. Was always going to be this way, and whilst I would always opt for Keegan (or Robson) over Benetiz style wise (all have/had great values and are admirable men, in their own right) I am not even complaining. He is how he is. I do wish we would just really go for it at times, seek to put the opposition under as much pressure as possible; have more s*** or bust last 20 minutes. Surely we had a decent chance of beating these today with a Murphy (or Aarons) chucked on and ‘a rip them to bits’ instruction passed to the whole team.

 

Who the fuck are Murphy and Aarons? If they are the players you are hanging your hat on with a shit or bust attitude, then I'm going to stick with the take a point approach tbh.

[Yorkie]

I'm still confident it's a temporary solution given the players we have and the objective for this season.

 

We've gone back to the tactics that got us results early on in the season. It worked then and it's working now, even if it doesn't always feel like it.

 

I wondering what his long game plan is because it's seemed clear for ages that Perez (at number 10) is one of his favourite 'tactics'. As you say, it worked before and it's working now, in terms of getting the most out of the squad he's got. Makes you wonder why we went through such an extended spell without it being in the setup. Maybe Ayoze wouldn't have the endurance to do it 38 times in a season, and he recognised that?

[jackyboy]

Rafa knows we can't score that's why he sets us up the way he does, trying to ensure a clean sheet and hopefully nick a goal.  Terrible really but that is all he's got to work with.

 

I think he needs to walk into Ashleys office and say 'Money now or I'm off'    All he's doing is working his nuts off to try and keep us up with a lot of Championship standard players.

[Guest reefatoon]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

[Heron]

After the chances we had created in the first half, I was shocked then annoyed at the fact that about 30mins in, they had possession stats up and Swansea had more of the ball at 52% to our 48%. So it’s clearly a tactic we adhere to of giving the opposition more of the ball, getting plenty bodies back and letting them lose it and then us trying to counter. If people can’t see that and always think it’s just folks slagging off Rafa for nothing, then they are the ones being stupid. Blaming the fans too ffs (heron give your head a wobble for that one like). Ridiculous. I don’t want Rafa to leave at all, but like I said, I can never warm to that kind of football at home where you allow teams to have the ball. If it gets results, all well and good and I would have to say, even though it is not enjoyable or good to watch, it works with these shite players, but the problem is, it just isn’t working, and we spend the time letting shit teams grow in confidence.

No, I won't give my head a wobble. Some of the comments from our fans and actions of those fans are either idiotic or detrimental. I heard fans making comments that Rafa was shit yesterday at the game, who would we get who is better like? He's not blameless and nor is he perfect but some of our fans spout ill educated, uncalculated shit.

 

The only thing I seem to see, which I can agree with, is that we don't play attractive, expansive football. So people aren't being entertained. I don't go to the games to be entertained I go there to support my team and be proud of their efforts which is what we have. We knew that before the season started, we just don't have the quality. Booing players off who are already giving their all, how is that constructive? Can you tell me? "Ah mate, you're trying your best but booooo you're fucking shit" aye... Nice one.

 

We aren't seeing entertaining football and at home we aren't seeing results. It's frustrating. I agree, we haven't always had the right tactics, like 2nd half yesterday. But if you don't think our home fans' negativity isn't contributing to that then you need to give your head a wobble.

[Heron]

I'm still confident it's a temporary solution given the players we have and the objective for this season.

 

We've gone back to the tactics that got us results early on in the season. It worked then and it's working now, even if it doesn't always feel like it.

[Guest reefatoon]

You came into this thread yesterday hell for leather mate saying it was the fans fault, which I didn’t agree with. It’s not just down to the fans though. Frustration sneaks in when you don’t have the ball. The negativity on the pitch feeds the negativity in the stands and vice versa. It’s all a little frustrating and people I suppose blame different areas, but it isn’t just the fans.

[Heron]

You came into this thread yesterday hell for leather mate saying it was the fans fault, which I didn’t agree with. It’s not just down to the fans though. Frustration sneaks in when you don’t have the ball. The negativity on the pitch feeds the negativity in the stands and vice versa. It’s all a little frustrating and people I suppose blame different areas.

That's fair enough that you didn't agree mate. I did come in hell for leather, I'd had a few beers and was pissed off with the attitude of our "support".

 

I just think it's equally important to see what we can do differently to help the team as it is to criticise those already doing their best at pitch level or pitch side. Do our fans give 100%? No. So why should the players? It's our club. They're just temporary custodians / assets.

 

You're right though, there is or should be an element of reciprocity. For some that is seeing exciting or aggressive football that gets them off their seat. For me that's them giving them all.

 

[Darth Crooks]

There's some nice spells and moves often IMO but we just don't have the quality to finish.

[Dave]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

[mrmojorisin75]

There's some nice spells and moves often IMO but we just don't have the quality to finish.

In a nutshell. And as I said elsewhere yesterday people use language like we 'allowed' them to do stuff second half. There are two teams in every game and we're certainly not good enough to contain any team for 90 minutes.

[Guest reefatoon]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

 

Just going off what I have seen with us Dave. Yes, we needed promotion at the first attemp last season, but our team/squad was so much more superior to other teams coming here, yet that’s the way we played (and we lost/drawn far too many games at home for a championship winning team. That’s why I was thinking it is his way of playing, because that’s all I have seen. It’s just what football is like now, so much more importance in not getting beat and teams set up accordingly. Other words, football is dull as fuck nowadays.

[STM]

I'm still confident it's a temporary solution given the players we have and the objective for this season.

 

We've gone back to the tactics that got us results early on in the season. It worked then and it's working now, even if it doesn't always feel like it.

 

Agreed. It's not pretty but its the only chance we have. Games are going to be tight and we aren't going to batter teams.

[Altamullan]

I thought that last season some over ‘restricted’ defensive set-ups at home almost cost us the Championship title. This season I fear the same may cost us Premier League survival. If Rafa was playing pontoon, I reckon he would almost always stick rather than twist. Was always going to be this way, and whilst I would always opt for Keegan (or Robson) over Benetiz style wise (all have/had great values and are admirable men, in their own right) I am not even complaining. He is how he is. I do wish we would just really go for it at times, seek to put the opposition under as much pressure as possible; have more s*** or bust last 20 minutes. Surely we had a decent chance of beating these today with a Murphy (or Aarons) chucked on and ‘a rip them to bits’ instruction passed to the whole team.

 

Who the f*** are Murphy and Aarons? If they are the players you are hanging your hat on with a s*** or bust attitude, then I'm going to stick with the take a point approach tbh.

They are at present, along with Atsu, the best options we have for running at the opposition, putting them on the back foot and reclaiming the home advantage which I have seen unsettle even experienced internationals (e.g. can recall Beckham seeming to physically recoil from the wall of noise coming from the crowd, Barton then megged him, to add insult to injury). Playing safe is possibly the best bet, but fuck man we have to win games like yesterday if we are going to stay-up. 

[Heron]

I thought yesterday was somewhat of a must win, it has to be said. However, if we'd drawn at Swansea and beat them at home I'd have been happy, so we've just done it in reverse.

[Altamullan]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

Purely from memory, his Liverpool side always seemed very 'methodical'. They were effective, had some great players, but don't recall enjoying watching them. My second reaction to Rafa coming here was a kind of resignation that we were going to see some pretty dire stuff at times. First reaction was pure delight mind!

[Greg]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

 

Just going off what I have seen with us Dave. Yes, we needed promotion at the first attemp last season, but our team/squad was so much more superior to other teams coming here,yet that’s the way we played (and we lost/drawn far too many games at home for a championship winning team. That’s why I was thinking it is his way of playing, because that’s all I have seen. It’s just what football is like now, so much more importance in not getting beat and teams set up accordingly. Other words, football is dull as f*** nowadays.

 

You know - it really wasn’t - not all of them. And it was made ever more difficult by every single team treating it like their cup final.

 

[mrmojorisin75]

Yep, it’s a style he likes to play. We played it with the best squad in the championship and we are playing it with the worst squad in the premiership. If the takeover goes through and we can drastically change the quality of the players, it will still be a system we stick too as it is how he has been so successful. It’s just a tough watch for me in home games. But if the results were going our way, I would look past it too and say well it’s getting us wins.

 

Is there any evidence that he 'likes' this style? Away from two seasons when the objective of promotion/survival was/is literally the only thing worth considering?

 

Did his teams routinely play like this at other clubs?

Purely from memory, his Liverpool side always seemed very 'methodical'. They were effective, had some great players, but don't recall enjoying watching them. My second reaction to Rafa coming here was a kind of resignation that we were going to see some pretty dire stuff at times. First reaction was pure delight mind!

Yeah I always thought similar with him at Liverpool, considered him a very dour manager in style. That said watching him with us over the last two years I can personally see how he plans things out, or at least my interpretation of it, which is essentially that you get everyone knowing the system and their roles etc. which will be functional. When you get the opportunity to upgrade positions the football itself will naturally become more expansive.

 

I mean if you keep things the same but get a top class 9 in and a really good winger instead of Ritchie then that would instantly give us more threat that would boost our own players behind them and make the opposition worry more.

 

Then get a proper LB who can get up and down and use the ball well, plus a CM capable of playing a PL game instead of Shelvey or Diame to start holding the ball better and dictating play a bit.

 

Nothing about the system ever changes but better players will allow it to naturally develop and become more expansive.

 

That's how I see it like, might be total bullshit and somewhat simplistic to say better players will make us better but it's a different thing to saying that for Pardew. There's a plan and he's being prevented from executing it basically.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

Liverpool were a hard pressing, high tempo team that got at teams and were often relentless without being overly ambitious or gung ho. They were hard to beat and could beat anyone on their day and often did. My LFC supporting mate said although they were involved in some funny old games and high scoring games, there was little room for free flowing off the cuff attacking football. It usually came in Cup games during extra time or when they were chasing a game. Our football is shit, but it’s miles better than what Pardew served up for example. Rafa is far too rigid and it’s not my kind of football. I dislike it intensely at times. It’s weird because at Valencia it was all about possession, he even wrote a coaching thesis on possession football and the benefits of just keeping the ball even without doing anything with it. I remember his Valencia side toying with Liverpool in the way Barca used to or City do today, I’m sure that day that’s when Liverpool decided he was a potential future manager of theirs.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

I used to have that thesis or document, it was a great read and Rafa is clearly a student of the game, but seems set in his ways these days and hasn’t really evolved.

 

From listening to former top players, I get the impression they are so focused, so machine like and so clinical when it comes to decision making, it’s easier for top players to do what Rafa wants than mediocre players who may want to do it and buy into it all, but just lack the switched on, focused, machine like mentality even if they have the ability. Shelvey struggles for example.

 

It does wear a player down eventually though and can burn them out. Mourinho is very similar.

 

Compare that to someone like Keegan who lets a player basically play to their strengths and encourages them to express themselves, to enjoy themselves and play with freedom.

 

What I do see when I watch us play is a solid shape off the ball, a well drilled side defensively. We ship goals because we lack quality really. Our ‘keepers are championship standard for example. Give Pardew this team and defensively we’d ship in a record number of goals week in week out.

 

It’s obvious if you give Rafa better players we will be a much better team and play much better. Forget exciting attacking football though, it’s not going to happen and flair players won’t feature in a Rafa team.

[mighty__mag]

Sorry like... But we should have been 3 up by half time. Lack of a quality striker cost us. Anything else is just stupid. Bored to f***ing tears of people following the mantra that if a team is doing bad it must be the managers fault. Mindless f*** spackers following the Sky Sports / Premier League mantra. Have a word with yourselves man. Tits.

 

Agreed. But we didn’t and as such it was 0-0 at half-time. What we did second half was allow a totally awful Swansea side to take the lead, dominate possession and basically have the second half. When you are dominant and creating chances you keep going, keep knocking on that door, eventually one will go in. We just didn’t turn up second half, a complete contras to the first half.

 

Again there is no excuse for that.

 

If we go in 2-0 up then you can relax etc. Go in 0-0 despite having the best chances and unlucky not to lead and surely you keep going. But oh no, not Rafa at home. Negative, boring, counter productive and total nonsense. This kind of ‘result’ can send you down. Swansea will draw huge confidence from this, for us it’s another game in the league at home we’ve failed to win.

 

It’s definately a ‘tactic’ of the manager because he was constantly instructing certain players to not get too far forward, to hold a line, to drop back and when the captain tells the keeper not to release the ball early and then bollocks him for even thinking about it, despite a break on and the crowd pushing for an early release...

 

It’s like the manager is happy just not to lose at home.

 

Me, I don’t get it or the tactics, it’s s*** and costing us big time. Swansea were there for the taking and one of the worst sides I’ve seen at home, yet second half they bossed it. First half only one winner and comfortably so, but only if we kept playing in the same vein...

 

Second half. It was like a different team, a different game.

I'll be honest. I always appreciate your opinion because I have this sense that you come from a similar footballing background to me, and I see your point. For me, 1st half we piled pressure and should have been 2up at least. 2nd half, we tried to let them come on so it would expose them on the counter. Given the results away from home that isn't stupid, but we paid the cost. At 1-1 we should have went hell for leather and instead we cautiously pressed. It was frustrating, but we've taken 4 points from Swansea this season which is good. All being said. We didn't win today because of a lack in quality (again) and not Benitez. He isn't void of criticism but after the last ten years of Ashley this probably the first team you can say you like and are proud of for a decade (at least).

 

Naa prefered our last champo side that gained promotion over this.

 

And our side with Demba ba Tiote Cabaye etc. Although managed by a cock end.

 

Are you feeling alright?

There's a difference. I enjoyed them. They did well. But we are now something to be proud of. Imagine if Benitez had that same crop of players man...

 

Yes but if we are proud of them why if we are not blaming Rafa are we blaming them instead. Its constantly mentioned this is the worst side in years, only again today the worst in the league by some.

 

Im not really proud of this side or much of a fan of the football, its dull boring s***, but im not daft enough to not understand Benitez trophy haul speaks for itself, if we lose Benitez we will never get a decorated manager again for a good while. But all the same there has been games where collectively Rafa has been as much at fault as the players. Benitez cant really be blamed for Dwight Gayle being a poor header of a football and missing good opportunities, he could be blamed for crap and poorly timed subs though.

 

I hope he gets to deliver his true ambitions with us and is backed. But with the fat t*** still here this will be another window where he might just not be thick skinned enough to deal with more p*ss taking from the hierarchy.

I think that his dull, methodical approach could be the difference between us staying up or enjoying one more game with a win that's all. 4 draws are better than 1 wins nd 3 losses. It's that sorta craic... Even though what I have said is over simplistic. FWIW I agree with the rest of your post. He isn't blameless but he is the smallest contributory factor.

 

Any points are good points. I agree with all sides of the debates when it comes to us, thats why I can see with some members arguments that they are unhappy with our hopeless approach at home, and our cautious style, instead of bossing the whole game at home when you know a side is there for the taking.

 

I love hearing the St James roar on motd when we go at sides and attack, its what most of us were attracted to in the first place. But sadly its missing at home atm because we are not going with that approach.

 

[emoji1303]

I appreciate your sentiment. However, on the subject of fans, it's the cat we have 26,000 there wanting to be entertained and sighing / booing at every opportunity that I'd also killing us. For every roar there's equal discontent. We knew where we'd be pre season yet some only remember the last pass. We're not alone like but there's no such thing as fans these days. Not in the UK. Just customers. Speaking in the majority of course.

 

I know what you mean about some of our fans mind. Loads near me offer absolutely nothing in terms of support, but love to get on the team's back at every given opportunity, when they can be bothered to look up from their phones that is.

The old goat in front of me spends the entire game sighing and shaking his head, I've had to bite my tongue as I'm there with my son, but he's getting right on my tits.

 

That is so true 

 

I once sat at the lower end of LVL 7. There's a big guy with a walking stick an old fella, I remember him because of two things, one was he blocked my view the entire game,being a very wide fella the other he sits infront of the barrier rail and just berates all the players shouts everything so everyone can receive it, and bangs his stick against the rail and boots the bottom of it.

 

He's a right old nutter.

[Kasper]

I'd love to see what would happen if Rafa would encourage this lot to "express themselves"

 

Well we all know it'd be a massacre, and not the good kind. What Rafa is doing right now is absolutely spot on and the only realistic way for us to survive.

 

All these cries for attacking football or "going for it" really frustrate me. We aren't good enough to take care of the ball. We make a lot of easy mistakes controlling the ball or passing the ball. If lose your shape and make that mistake in transition several times a match then you're always looking like conceding. The shape and rigidness is what's keeping us a live and covering for those mistakes.

[Guest Howaythetoon]

You have to remember tens of thousands of match day going fans only see us from going, they aren’t on forums, social media or maybe don’t even watch much footy outside of us so they don’t over analyse things or see things from many perspectives. If they see a player making a mistake they will have a go. I think in general, especially this season, fans by and large have been great and you cannot blame anyone for the odd dissent or show of frustration. It’s the numpties that will slag Lascelles off and call him shit for example if he makes a mistake. Thankfully they appear to be in the minority.