Success at what cost?

[Rafalove]

Again I agree with most of that. You are very right that this is a systemic failure with in English football one that has been on the cards for a long time that we have done nothing to prevent. The only thing I would pick up on from that post is that i am not in anyway trying to say they are anything other than horrible or say they have suddenly become wonderful.

[Tiresias]

[TRon]

And then quietly reintroduce it when the PR storm dies down? I'm not going to suddenly think they're a lovely country overnight. I am also sure there are some positive moves happening, some genuine reformers etc and a young population desperate for change. They are still subject to the whims of autocrats who are still in power despite commiting many pretty hideous crimes. But even setting all that aside

 

Nation states, should not directly or indirectly own football clubs. Full Stop. It is wrong, and the problem is not with us it is with the whole league, but that does not stop it being absurd.

 

Is that something they do? Reintroduce abhorant laws After bad pr dies down? Don’t disagree with anything you said there. I would much prefer one of those American owners supposedly interested. Didn’t post that link to defend them btw.

 

 

These are medieval laws to begin with, I would have thought the hard part is removing them in the first place since they are linked to religious laws laid down centuries ago. It's far more likely that they are trying to step blinking hard into the sunlight, but as the culture there is so reserved it will take some time. I would imagine it was the same in Europe, only it happened here a couple of hundred years ago.

[Rafalove]

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/podcast-norman-speaks-to-miguel-delaney-amnesty-international/id922005191?i=1000472607538

[mrmojorisin75]

What I’ve found mental about this whole thing is super “Brexit/are country” types railing against people having a go at the Saudis, who would have called try me worse than s*** about 2 months ago. Mad to see

 

People are so fucking thick these days man. Or maybe they always were but are now exposed to more stuff and can have their stupid fucking say on everything.

 

That stuff with the widow the other day was astonishing. Just incredible.

[Greg]

I spoke to Forbes, long piece here.

 

"The uneasy alliance between football fans and billionaires looks set to continue at Newcastle. Tomlinson warns, “We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose these owners now. As football fans we support the club, not the owners. It's really complex. People will find this difficult.”"

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddawkins/2020/04/21/the-end-of-the-mike-ashley-era-newcastle-united-fans-reflect-on-a-broken-relationship/#48a2bf5847ed

 

Seemingly, not most of our Twitter following. Some of the Twitter abuse directed towards the likes of Hatice Cengiz and the glorification of things people know little about or don't understand has been staggering.

 

 

[huss9]

Would it be reasonable to suggest that the Saudi’s owning us would accelerate their “modernisation” and progression as a forward thinking society? They’re going to be fully under the spotlight here...probably more than they realise.

 

i made this point in another thread.

it's also something thats been mentioned by relatives that have or still are working in saudi.

they see at a positive thing for themselves as ordinary citizens.

 

Seriously asking this - you have relatives in Saudi who see this as potentially positive to change in their culture?

 

my relatives arent arabs, but they live and work there. they tell me that arab colleagues/friends do see it as a positive. they think the scrutiny on the regime will be enormous as the Premier League is such a big deal over there. they are aware things wont change overnight and some things ( eg homosexuality laws) may never change due to religion. but they see any kind of western sport/culture involvement as a positive. they think it will highlight issues around liberty and rights that will have to be addressed. they reckon it will stop any khasshogi incidents happening again. these are normal people though.... what the religious fanatics think, I dont know.

[Shadow Puppets]

I spoke to Forbes, long piece here.

 

"The uneasy alliance between football fans and billionaires looks set to continue at Newcastle. Tomlinson warns, “We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose these owners now. As football fans we support the club, not the owners. It's really complex. People will find this difficult.”"

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddawkins/2020/04/21/the-end-of-the-mike-ashley-era-newcastle-united-fans-reflect-on-a-broken-relationship/#48a2bf5847ed

 

Seemingly, not most of our Twitter following. Some of the Twitter abuse directed towards the likes of Hatice Cengiz and the glorification of things people know little about or don't understand has been staggering.

 

I’m hoping all of that shit is just a combination of uneducated people getting overly excited and defensive. HOPEFULLY, once this takeover goes through and they’ve got their feet under the desk, all of the press scrutiny and idiot responses to it will die away.

[Disco]

I spoke to Forbes, long piece here.

 

"The uneasy alliance between football fans and billionaires looks set to continue at Newcastle. Tomlinson warns, “We didn't choose Mike Ashley and we don't choose these owners now. As football fans we support the club, not the owners. It's really complex. People will find this difficult.”"

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/daviddawkins/2020/04/21/the-end-of-the-mike-ashley-era-newcastle-united-fans-reflect-on-a-broken-relationship/#48a2bf5847ed

 

Seemingly, not most of our Twitter following. Some of the Twitter abuse directed towards the likes of Hatice Cengiz and the glorification of things people know little about or don't understand has been staggering.

 

I’m hoping all of that shit is just a combination of uneducated people getting overly excited and defensive. HOPEFULLY, once this takeover goes through and they’ve got their feet under the desk, all of the press scrutiny and idiot responses to it will die away.

 

Fans will get worse, 100%. The more successful the worse it’ll be.

 

Let’s not forget for a lot of English people the death penalty, for example, is already a positive and a dream.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Hold on though, people don’t actually support Saudi Arabia, they just think they’re supporting their club.

[Disco]

Hold on though, people don’t actually support Saudi Arabia, they just think they’re supporting their club.

 

They don’t directly but they’ll go more and more into bat for them and defend. See City fans doing all the time and it’s already started with the Donnay Army.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Hold on though, people don’t actually support Saudi Arabia, they just think they’re supporting their club.

 

They don’t directly but they’ll go more and more into bat for them and defend. See City fans doing all the time and it’s already started with the Donnay Army.

 

I know, but what I mean is it’s not because they actually love cutting people’s hands off, they conflate it with supporting NUFC.

[Disco]

Hold on though, people don’t actually support Saudi Arabia, they just think they’re supporting their club.

 

They don’t directly but they’ll go more and more into bat for them and defend. See City fans doing all the time and it’s already started with the Donnay Army.

 

I know, but what I mean is it’s not because they actually love cutting people’s hands off, they conflate it with supporting NUFC.

 

They’ll look past the former to defend the latter. As I said some already want the former and will put their prejudices aside to fall in line regardless.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

I know that, you just mentioned the death penalty so I assumed you meant they’d be thinking of the acts Saudi Arabia commit. Look past them, I agree.

[Kid Icarus]

Just goes to show how far people can go in overlooking things if there's the possibility of their material interests being looked after. If people can not only overlook, but defend Saudi barbarism because their football club might improve, it should now be a no-brainer why things like poor people voting for Trump in the rust belt happened and will continue to happen.

[Darth Crooks]

I do wonder like. And I appreciate it’s a nth degree example with flaws but does bombing refugees in the Yemen or flogging homosexuals not register half as much of they were say the French doing the same to I dunno, Belgians? At what point would it make a difference?

[Kid Icarus]

If they run the club for profit, stop spending money on players, don't bring success, or the bubble bursts imo. Even then I can't see there ever being any fan base-wide objections on ethical grounds.

[TRon]

Just goes to show how far people can go in overlooking things if there's the possibility of their material interests being looked after. If people can not only overlook, but defend Saudi barbarism because their football club might improve, it should now be a no-brainer why things like poor people voting for Trump in the rust belt happened and will continue to happen.

 

Poor people vote for Trump because they want things to be better, it's not that different to Newcastle fans, I suppose you're right there. Difference is, Trump will probably make things worse for them because he's a businessman, and business goals are not usually to put money in poor people's pockets.

[Kid Icarus]

Just goes to show how far people can go in overlooking things if there's the possibility of their material interests being looked after. If people can not only overlook, but defend Saudi barbarism because their football club might improve, it should now be a no-brainer why things like poor people voting for Trump in the rust belt happened and will continue to happen.

 

Poor people vote for Trump because they want things to be better, it's not that different to Newcastle fans, I suppose you're right there. Difference is, Trump will probably make things worse for them because he's a businessman, and business goals are not usually to put money in poor people's pockets.

 

I'd say the difference is they're selling out a lot less for potentially much more in return tbh. Trump is aesthetically displeasing but has nothing on the Saudis in terms of what he's actually done, and obviously the potential of having a livelihood again means more than your favourite football team having money to sign players.

 

Trump hasn't improved anything for them - no different to any other president, rep or dem, since NAFTA. The difference being that he bothered his arse to acknowledge the problem and lie about helping them whereas the opposition didn't, offered nothing, and continue to offer nothing.

[Sean]

Just goes to show how far people can go in overlooking things if there's the possibility of their material interests being looked after. If people can not only overlook, but defend Saudi barbarism because their football club might improve, it should now be a no-brainer why things like poor people voting for Trump in the rust belt happened and will continue to happen.

 

The worlds full of complete morons, it's not unique to football or NUFC (although we probably have more than our fair share).

 

Maybe instead of moaning about them, try to educate the ones that might listen. But what do you want? A fanbase that tries to force the Saudis out (if this happens), or merely an educated fanbase that will not be used as a weapon? If it's the second, then try to engage the ones that are willing to learn? A huge proportion of our fans don't really know anything about the Saudis, MBS etc.

[Kid Icarus]

Just goes to show how far people can go in overlooking things if there's the possibility of their material interests being looked after. If people can not only overlook, but defend Saudi barbarism because their football club might improve, it should now be a no-brainer why things like poor people voting for Trump in the rust belt happened and will continue to happen.

 

The worlds full of complete morons, it's not unique to football or NUFC (although we probably have more than our fair share).

 

Maybe instead of moaning about them, try to educate the ones that might listen. But what do you want? A fanbase that tries to force the Saudis out (if this happens), or merely an educated fanbase that will not be used as a weapon? If it's the second, then try to engage the ones that are willing to learn? A huge proportion of our fans don't really know anything about the Saudis, MBS etc.

 

The entire point of my post was the bit in bold, although I wouldn't say they're morons, they're just looking after their material interests, as everyone does. Not moaning either, just mentioning something I learned that I think is useful to consider if you're the sort who (like me) couldn't work out why people overlook or side with terrible people/organisations.

 

As for the rest, I was part of SackPardew, AshleyOut, The Magpie Group, am an NUST member, and I volunteer for numerous political campaigns here and abroad, so I do try.

 

Fans weren't willing to walk away from an unsuccessful, spirit crushing Mike Ashley with terrible business practices, so I'm not holding my breath that a potentially cash-splashing, successful MBS would bring better returns. I'd rather put my work to better use, but that doesn't mean I can't share my opinion on a football forum just because it's not praxis.

[Sean]

Just goes to show how far people can go in overlooking things if there's the possibility of their material interests being looked after. If people can not only overlook, but defend Saudi barbarism because their football club might improve, it should now be a no-brainer why things like poor people voting for Trump in the rust belt happened and will continue to happen.

 

The worlds full of complete morons, it's not unique to football or NUFC (although we probably have more than our fair share).

 

Maybe instead of moaning about them, try to educate the ones that might listen. But what do you want? A fanbase that tries to force the Saudis out (if this happens), or merely an educated fanbase that will not be used as a weapon? If it's the second, then try to engage the ones that are willing to learn? A huge proportion of our fans don't really know anything about the Saudis, MBS etc.

 

The entire point of my post was the bit in bold, although I wouldn't say they're morons, they're just looking after their material interests, as everyone does. Not moaning either, just mentioning something I learned that I think is useful to consider if you're the sort who (like me) couldn't work out why people overlook or side with terrible people/organisations.

 

As for the rest, I was part of SackPardew, AshleyOut, The Magpie Group, and I volunteer for numerous political campaigns here and abroad, so I do try.

 

Fans weren't willing to walk away from an unsuccessful, spirit crushing Mike Ashley with terrible business practices, so I'm not holding my breath that a potentially cash-splashing, successful MBS would bring better returns. I'd rather put my work to better use, but that doesn't mean I can't share my opinion on a football forum just because it's not praxis.

 

It'll be the ones that defended and stayed loyal to Ashley that will be the biggest/loudest cheerleaders for a new regime no doubt. Morons almost to a man.

 

The plus side is, they will be unable to actually formulate and present a coherent argument.

[Infinitely Content]

I think something worth noting is the idea that there's a price to pay for pretty much everything in life. You could say it's a product of the inherent dualism of this current experience. That even when you create a positive change in your life in some way, there's always a price to pay, you gain a piece but you lose one too. Now I'm not using this to make any semblance of a hint that accepting the Saudi's obvious problems as 'the price' is the thing to do, but instead raising the idea that whilst we all would love to find ourselves in this perfect situation where morality aligns with all of our desires for our football club to progress is unfortunately quite unlikely. You imagine the noble owner with a clean track record, and you get that sense of pride, of feeling connected to the club, but maybe you sacrifice success. Or you imagine the incredibly wealthy owners, with no connection to the club, the area, the fans, but pots of money to spend and plenty to criticise them for... neither option is going to satisfy everybody. Gives and takes away.

[Infinitely Content]

I think something worth noting is the idea that there's a price to pay for pretty much everything in life. You could say it's a product of the inherent dualism of this current experience. That even when you create a positive change in your life in some way, there's always a price to pay, you gain a piece but you lose one too. Now I'm not using this to make any semblance of a hint that accepting the Saudi's obvious problems as 'the price' is the thing to do, but instead raising the idea that whilst we all would love to find ourselves in this perfect situation where morality aligns with all of our desires for our football club to progress is unfortunately quite unlikely. You imagine the noble owner with a clean track record, and you get that sense of pride, of feeling connected to the club, but maybe you sacrifice success. Or you imagine the incredibly wealthy owners, with no connection to the club, the area, the fans, but pots of money to spend and plenty to criticise them for... neither option is going to satisfy everybody. Gives and takes away.

 

I do get what you're saying, but I'm not expecting our new owner's morality to align completely with my own, lets face it most billonaires are cunts, I'd be pissed if Bezos bought us. But its levels man. At the very least I expect our owners to not be actual murderers. There are in betweens. I hate Ashley but there is simply no argument that as a human being he's better than MBS. I'd take a detestable billionaire that invests in the club, which is possible. It happens at plenty of other clubs all the time.

 

I can't refute any of that. I just think good and bad things happen in precise proportion to one another, an example is those personality types that have huge soaring highs and crashing, crushing lows... whereas others sort of just bob above and below the neutral line, and in a sense that's what we're seeing here. We all have to look at our own selves and see (or speculate) what relationship we're likely to have with NUFC under this probable new regime. Can the two (the owners actions and the success of our club) be reconciled? I'd guess not, it would be quite the stretch. Can each be held in separate hands despite the conflict and uncomfortable feeling, and will it be possible to be fully educated on matters in Saudi Arabia and speak about it/against it where necessary, whilst also still enjoying the (possible) success of the club? It's not as easy as some people are making it out imo, on both sides of the matter.

[bealios]

I can't help but think that anyone in our fanbase who is against this for moral reasons doesn't quite understand capitalism. There is literally nobody who can afford a football club who doesn't have as much of a link to death or general misery than PIF.

 

[Edit] Maybe Bill Gates, anyone checked whether he likes us?