Success at what cost?

[Pixelphish]

I’ll support my club, I’ll regret that it’s owned by Saudi Arabia. I’ll regret the state of the game that allows it to happen.

 

I don’t think I’d call that hypocrisy. We could all have been protesting again Saudi Arabia any time we wanted.

 

[Foluwashola]

The guys from the Independent and the Guardian are getting by far the most grief.

 

I think many people feel that Independent journalists are a bit hypocritical, when a Saudi investor part owns the company.

 

I thought that journalists' work not being dictated by the owners of their outlets would be seen as a good thing but you live and learn.

 

He could try and get a job at another newspaper, since hes so principled.

 

And if he does that, how does it change the situation at NUFC or whether it's right or wrong for these guys to own the club?

 

It doesn't at all, it's just a lazy cheap point scoring exercise to avoid discussing the actual issue. Play the ball, not the man.

 

I'm talking about him being a hypocrite and why I find it annoying and I've made my point. It doesnt change a thing on the ownership issue. But it makes him a hypocrite and in the process annoys me.

 

Why do you change the subject? I can, on the one hand, see someones point of view but on the other see them as a hypocrite because of it.

 

Do you want to talk about the morality of Saudi ownership or hypocrisy? I've put aside the ownership issue and said it's fair enough that people feel uncomfortable but I'm not having someone telling me what I should think or do when they dont themselves take a stand.

 

I take Neesys point that the guy might have tried to get a job at a newspaper, and fair play if he did. I doubt it.

 

It's not hypocrisy though.

 

His position, as I understand it, is: Newcastle fans are going to benefiting from Saudi money, and so should speak out against their human rights abuses while doing so (at the match etc).

 

That's exactly what he's doing. He's taking a wage from a newspaper part owned by Saudi money, and speaking out against their human rights abuses while doing so. He's practising what he preaches. It's literally the opposite of hypocrisy.

 

I dont agree. Hes working for (and by proxy, supporting) the very people who he says we should snub. I've never doubted his knowledge on the subject fwiw.

 

I also think we all play apart in the horrid game. Every time I get petrol, I'm probably supporting them in some way.

 

It's just this time, i might get some glimmer of joy out of my football club. I know its selfish but that's just how I feel.

 

He doesn't say they should be 'snubbed' though, in fact the main thing he advocated that people had a problem with was a protest at the games themselves which is exactly in keeping with his circumstances. I think that's unrealistic, there's just no history of political protest in this country at football, but it's certainly not without precedent. Bayern Munich supporters at the moment are being extremely vocal on the club's relationship with Qatar.

 

 

Not just unrealistic, they're utterly absurd. Football for most is an escape - a chance to have a few drinks on a weekend, be entertained and display some collective pride in your local club. He's genuinely going around proposing fans, who haven't asked for Saudi involvement, suddenly become ultra-political and bring geet huge flags of murdered Saudi dissidents to the match. Cloud cuckoo land and not representative of someone who understands the sport they're paid to commentate on. 

[loki679]

loki679[/member], bro, even if people were the most obnoxious of online slactivist virtue signaling dickbags why does it rankle you so? They don't matter.

 

fwiw I don't think mandoon or ki or anyone here really fall into that category. Just curious.

 

KI doesn't.

 

An exact quote from Ki

I'll very likely be a hypocrite and still watch us on telly, just as I do now

 

an exact quote from me

 

(I'm personally probably going to watch (though feel guilty about it)

 

Just shows your personal petty attack on me has not basis in reality. But you know that already. I'm not having a go at you kisearch[/member] here btw. Just Loki being a little angry weirdo trying to pick fights with me online,

 

:cheesy:

 

Difference is he accepts he's a hypocrite.

 

EXACT QUOTE FROM ME

 

nd I’m saying this as someone who is forcing my morals down to watch us under new ownership. If my life wasn’t as ridiculously stressful as it is, and having had the worst time recently (got Covid ffs) id be taking a very hard look into whether I’d be interested in watching us. It’s situational for me, I’m aware of the hypocrisy and the selfishness but it is what it is (as Bruce said so eloquently)

 

you've been made to look a cunt for randomly picking on me online, so just suck it up.

 

Alright, so accept your hypocrisy, embrace it and stop trying to qualify everything with 'oh, I'll feel so guilty'. Be real.  Admit what the rest of us do that they suck as owners but fuck it, we gonna win the champions league.

 

It's not you that gets me going, mandoon, it's the whole 'oh man they're so terrible but I'm still going to support us' thing. If people, including you, gave that much of a shit about dead kids in Yemen you wouldn't be anywhere near this club.

 

 

[TRon]

I don’t know whether because the football isn’t here and all it brings socially etc. but after all this, Ashley included I’m very unlikely to plug back into football altogether I think. The furlough stuff from multiple clubs, super leagues. Governments buying clubs. It’s been laid very bare how devoid of decency it mostly is.

 

Without wanting to get into talking about a wider political point or whatever, I agree and I think Covid has massively exposed all of the grim, blood-sucking failings of capitalism overall.

 

I do actually agree with this, I'm not a fan of capitalism in general, something has never sat right with me about it. I've often thought socialism has is fundamentally a better intentioned way of life. Getting it to work anywhere in the world seems to be a problem though, especially when you've got all the resources of the capitalist big boys to throw against it.

 

That apart though, this is the world we live in, and I've enjoyed football for the last 20 years as we've gone deeper into the money frenzy. Man City and Chelsea went from middling clubs to being Premier league champions during this period. I do not want to walk away now it might finally be our turn.

[wormy]

With each day that passes and I'm left to stew over it, the more I feel bad for wanting this takeover so much. But I get the strong feeling that'll all be pushed to the back of my mind as soon as the football starts up and we have a manager I can actually get behind. Accept that's not particularly a good thing.

 

Probably doesn't help that I've supported the club from the other end of the country all my life, and in adulthood have maintained that if Ashley ever goes and I have the time/disposable income I'm going to attempt to get a season ticket or if not, at least get up there a few times every season. Getting to SJP and Newcastle in general is still an 'event' for me, so any chance to do so I'll snatch at with both hands.

 

I'll be interested to see what my emotions are if we win a trophy under this new ownership. Can imagine the people coming out of the woodwork to remind us we won it with 'blood money' or whatever, and wonder how much those sorts of comments will dampen it for me.

 

EDIT: Disclaimer following the events of the last few pages that I completely accept I'm a hypocrite.

[HaydnNUFC]

Bit radgy in here isn't it? I think it's a fair position to feel guilty while still being fairly happy about the takeover. FWIW, I think both celebrating the takeover is slightly similar to the inclusion of Saudi in flags in bios and names on social media while at the same time being the exact polar opposite of each other with the latter not exactly sensitive. I think this is much more down to a celebration of Ashley, a man responsible for 13 year long degradation and suffocation of Newcastle United and it's supporters, pushing many to walking away, turning against fellow fans plus the countless other stuff we all know about, finally selling up. As are the misguided arguments on social media and here. The alternative however, while it may well be a golden ticket to success, is tainted for reasons we all know by know. Attacking journalists who reiterate those reasons does us no good. Nor does posters on here getting into quarrels like this.

 

We all have opinions. Respect them.

[wormy]

One thing's for sure is that it sure as hell does fucking suck that we're finally getting rid of Ashley and still can't stop arguing amongst ourselves. The fat fuck will still be pissing himself laughing at us even after he's gone.

[loki679]

loki679[/member], bro, even if people were the most obnoxious of online slactivist virtue signaling dickbags why does it rankle you so? They don't matter.

 

fwiw I don't think mandoon or ki or anyone here really fall into that category. Just curious.

 

KI doesn't.

 

An exact quote from Ki

I'll very likely be a hypocrite and still watch us on telly, just as I do now

 

an exact quote from me

 

(I'm personally probably going to watch (though feel guilty about it)

 

Just shows your personal petty attack on me has not basis in reality. But you know that already. I'm not having a go at you kisearch[/member] here btw. Just Loki being a little angry weirdo trying to pick fights with me online,

 

:cheesy:

 

Difference is he accepts he's a hypocrite.

 

EXACT QUOTE FROM ME

 

nd I’m saying this as someone who is forcing my morals down to watch us under new ownership. If my life wasn’t as ridiculously stressful as it is, and having had the worst time recently (got Covid ffs) id be taking a very hard look into whether I’d be interested in watching us. It’s situational for me, I’m aware of the hypocrisy and the selfishness but it is what it is (as Bruce said so eloquently)

 

you've been made to look a cunt for randomly picking on me online, so just suck it up.

 

Alright, so accept your hypocrisy, embrace it and stop trying to qualify everything with 'oh, I'll feel so guilty'. Be real.  Admit what the rest of us do that they suck as owners but fuck it, we gonna win the champions league.

 

It's not you that gets me going, mandoon, it's the whole 'oh man they're so terrible but I'm still going to support us' thing. If people, including you, gave that much of a shit about dead kids in Yemen you wouldn't be anywhere near this club.

 

What are you on about? I've literally accepted my hypocrisy, its typed out in front of you. I have no idea what you are talking about, I said I would feel guilty, as I'm sure KI will. This has no basis in reality, I qualified my hypocrisy but I've done nothing but own up to it. That's literally all I can do. There is no basis for what you're saying,  i haven't qualified everything, if you read the post I quoted I literally said I i know that I'm a hypocrite and selfish. What the fuck man. As for what I beleive, I lived away from newcastle my entire life and wanted a season ticket, after moving back I stuck to the "not giving ashley money" ideal even though my brother goes every week, my mum would love to go, you've literally no idea about being real. Go back and see what I did for SP, then reconsider.

 

Right, so zero hours contracts you'll boycott. Killing women and children you'll feel a bit guilty.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

We were boycotting the running of the club, not the zero hours contracts.

[Foluwashola]

One thing's for sure is that it sure as hell does fucking suck that we're finally getting rid of Ashley and still can't stop arguing amongst ourselves. The fat fuck will still be pissing himself laughing at us even after he's gone.

 

All a distant memory when captain Jack Grealish slips home the winner in the Allianz ~May 2022.

[TRon]

We were boycotting the running of the club, not the zero hours contracts.

 

Well yeah. If the takeover goes through, by that logic we'd only boycott if the running of the club went wonky, the political rumblings off the field would be less of an  issue.

[Kid Icarus]

So this is what it feels like to watch an argument from the outside.

[Wullie]

The guys from the Independent and the Guardian are getting by far the most grief.

 

I think many people feel that Independent journalists are a bit hypocritical, when a Saudi investor part owns the company.

 

I thought that journalists' work not being dictated by the owners of their outlets would be seen as a good thing but you live and learn.

 

He could try and get a job at another newspaper, since hes so principled.

 

And if he does that, how does it change the situation at NUFC or whether it's right or wrong for these guys to own the club?

 

It doesn't at all, it's just a lazy cheap point scoring exercise to avoid discussing the actual issue. Play the ball, not the man.

 

I'm talking about him being a hypocrite and why I find it annoying and I've made my point. It doesnt change a thing on the ownership issue. But it makes him a hypocrite and in the process annoys me.

 

Why do you change the subject? I can, on the one hand, see someones point of view but on the other see them as a hypocrite because of it.

 

Do you want to talk about the morality of Saudi ownership or hypocrisy? I've put aside the ownership issue and said it's fair enough that people feel uncomfortable but I'm not having someone telling me what I should think or do when they dont themselves take a stand.

 

I take Neesys point that the guy might have tried to get a job at a newspaper, and fair play if he did. I doubt it.

 

It's not hypocrisy though.

 

His position, as I understand it, is: Newcastle fans are going to benefiting from Saudi money, and so should speak out against their human rights abuses while doing so (at the match etc).

 

That's exactly what he's doing. He's taking a wage from a newspaper part owned by Saudi money, and speaking out against their human rights abuses while doing so. He's practising what he preaches. It's literally the opposite of hypocrisy.

 

I dont agree. Hes working for (and by proxy, supporting) the very people who he says we should snub. I've never doubted his knowledge on the subject fwiw.

 

I also think we all play apart in the horrid game. Every time I get petrol, I'm probably supporting them in some way.

 

It's just this time, i might get some glimmer of joy out of my football club. I know its selfish but that's just how I feel.

 

He doesn't say they should be 'snubbed' though, in fact the main thing he advocated that people had a problem with was a protest at the games themselves which is exactly in keeping with his circumstances. I think that's unrealistic, there's just no history of political protest in this country at football, but it's certainly not without precedent. Bayern Munich supporters at the moment are being extremely vocal on the club's relationship with Qatar.

 

 

Not just unrealistic, they're utterly absurd. Football for most is an escape - a chance to have a few drinks on a weekend, be entertained and display some collective pride in your local club. He's genuinely going around proposing fans, who haven't asked for Saudi involvement, suddenly become ultra-political and bring geet huge flags of murdered Saudi dissidents to the match. Cloud cuckoo land and not representative of someone who understands the sport they're paid to commentate on. 

 

It's only absurd in this country. Political protest at European football isn't just common, at some clubs (St Pauli for example) it's the norm. Lyon fans synced up a massive Tibetan flag earlier this season just because one of their games was moved for Chinese TV. I don't think I could be arsed personally like.

 

[ElDiablo]

Unfortunately the British public and therefore it's football fans adore the taste of boot. It's why we're having to have this discussion in the first place.

[Mr Logic]

One thing's for sure is that it sure as hell does fucking suck that we're finally getting rid of Ashley and still can't stop arguing amongst ourselves. The fat fuck will still be pissing himself laughing at us even after he's gone.

 

 

Its simple to stop arguing though. Just stop.

 

It would be a very strange world if we all held the same opinions. The problem is people relentlessly repeating their position as if the other person didn't get it. People don't change opinions that easy.

As Thomas suggested - breathe in, breathe out.

[Foluwashola]

Oh fully aware there are the odd protest team around Europe.

 

Rangers / Celtic aptly demonstrate how cringeworthy it can often be. Rightly or wrongly its never going to be on the agenda for most, myself included.

[nufcjmc]

One thing's for sure is that it sure as hell does fucking suck that we're finally getting rid of Ashley and still can't stop arguing amongst ourselves. The fat fuck will still be pissing himself laughing at us even after he's gone.

 

 

Its simple to stop arguing though. Just stop.

 

It would be a very strange world if we all held the same opinions. The problem is people relentlessly repeating their position as if the other person didn't get it. People don't change opinions that easy.

As Thomas suggested - breathe in, breathe out.

 

As long as it stays here and doesn't leak into every other thread its a good place as any to go around in circles.

[wormy]

One thing's for sure is that it sure as hell does fucking suck that we're finally getting rid of Ashley and still can't stop arguing amongst ourselves. The fat fuck will still be pissing himself laughing at us even after he's gone.

 

 

Its simple to stop arguing though. Just stop.

 

It would be a very strange world if we all held the same opinions. The problem is people relentlessly repeating their position as if the other person didn't get it. People don't change opinions that easy.

As Thomas suggested - breathe in, breathe out.

 

It's times like this I'm thankful that I'm not interesting/interested enough to end up in such arguments.

[Kid Icarus]

I don’t know whether because the football isn’t here and all it brings socially etc. but after all this, Ashley included I’m very unlikely to plug back into football altogether I think. The furlough stuff from multiple clubs, super leagues. Governments buying clubs. It’s been laid very bare how devoid of decency it mostly is.

 

Without wanting to get into talking about a wider political point or whatever, I agree and I think Covid has massively exposed all of the grim, blood-sucking failings of capitalism overall.

 

I do actually agree with this, I'm not a fan of capitalism in general, something has never sat right with me about it. I've often thought socialism has is fundamentally a better intentioned way of life. Getting it to work anywhere in the world seems to be a problem though, especially when you've got all the resources of the capitalist big boys to throw against it.

 

That's one way of describing the violent, CIA-backed coups of any country that dares to nationalise its resources, yeah.

[Shadow Puppets]

I would consider myself a person with very high moral standards, but I'm not 100% sure why as an NUFC fan my morals should be called into question over something I have zero control over. I don't choose the owner.

 

Am I happy that NUFC are about to be taken over by owners who are likely to bring significant investment to the club and area and see us challenging for things? ABSOLUTELY FUCKING YES!

Am I happy that the majority shareholders have a less-than-stellar human rights record? ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT

 

Is this sportswashing? MAYBE

 

Is it a genuine attempt at significant progression from a nation that needs to progress? MAYBE

 

Should I as a fan be held in contempt for supporting my club moving forward? ABSOLUTELY NOT

 

As far as I can tell, morality and football don't go hand-in-hand. They haven't for some time. That horse bolted a long time ago. You get what you're given.

 

Without knowing the ins and outs of Saudi's actions in recent years, or how much they are progressing, it's not really my place to champion or denounce their merits as owners. I've read some horrible things. I've also read plenty of things that suggest that Bin Salman has been a very forward thinking leader so far and that they are progressing as a society very quickly. Let's hope that their involvement in NUFC signals a significant step in that progression.

[STM]

I would consider myself a person with very high moral standards, but I'm not 100% sure why as an NUFC fan my morals should be called into question over something I have zero control over. I don't choose the owner.

 

Am I happy that NUFC are about to be taken over by owners who are likely to bring significant investment to the club and area and see us challenging for things? ABSOLUTELY FUCKING YES!

Am I happy that the majority shareholders have a less-than-stellar human rights record? ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT

 

Is this sportswashing? MAYBE

 

Is it a genuine attempt at significant progression from a nation that needs to progress? MAYBE

 

Should I as a fan be held in contempt for supporting my club moving forward? ABSOLUTELY NOT

 

As far as I can tell, morality and football don't go hand-in-hand. They haven't for some time. That horse bolted a long time ago. You get what you're given.

 

Without knowing the ins and outs of Saudi's actions in recent years, or how much they are progressing, it's not really my place to champion or denounce their merits as owners. I've read some horrible things. I've also read plenty of things that suggest that Bin Salman has been a very forward thinking leader so far and that they are progressing as a society very quickly. Let's hope that their involvement in NUFC signals a significant step in that progression.

 

Pfft. Whataboutery.  :lol:

 

Just kidding. I agree entirely.

[Darth Crooks]

Interesting this is thought

[Shays Given Tim Flowers]

So this is what it feels like to watch an argument from the outside.

 

[Rafalove]

Interesting this is thought

 

Be happy if more follow suit

[Kanji]

I would consider myself a person with very high moral standards, but I'm not 100% sure why as an NUFC fan my morals should be called into question over something I have zero control over. I don't choose the owner.

 

Am I happy that NUFC are about to be taken over by owners who are likely to bring significant investment to the club and area and see us challenging for things? ABSOLUTELY FUCKING YES!

Am I happy that the majority shareholders have a less-than-stellar human rights record? ABSOLUTELY FUCKING NOT

 

Is this sportswashing? MAYBE

 

Is it a genuine attempt at significant progression from a nation that needs to progress? MAYBE

 

Should I as a fan be held in contempt for supporting my club moving forward? ABSOLUTELY NOT

 

As far as I can tell, morality and football don't go hand-in-hand. They haven't for some time. That horse bolted a long time ago. You get what you're given.

 

Without knowing the ins and outs of Saudi's actions in recent years, or how much they are progressing, it's not really my place to champion or denounce their merits as owners. I've read some horrible things. I've also read plenty of things that suggest that Bin Salman has been a very forward thinking leader so far and that they are progressing as a society very quickly. Let's hope that their involvement in NUFC signals a significant step in that progression.

 

great post man.