Interpolic Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 46 minutes ago, Wullie said: Now England can experience it?? It's been an England trait in major tournament big games for as long as I can remember. We score very early, cede possession and eventually get done. Croatia 2018 (Trippier after 5 mins) Iceland 2016 (Rooney after 4 mins) Portugal 2004 (Owen after 3 mins) Brazil 2002 (Owen after 23 mins) Argentina 1998 (Owen put us 2-1 up after 16 mins) Germany 1996 (Shearer after 3 mins) Depressing reading it all collated like that. I think the problem over the years has been at least a little bit cultural, a perception that bravery is defending for your lives, throwing yourself in to block shots, withstanding outrageous pressure from the opposition. When in fact it's far braver to continue posing an attacking threat, without going gung ho. Last night we didn't even have a Gazza in ET moment, there was the ball that was inches away from Stones' head tbf but that was about it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) I think Italy were only slightly the better team over 120 minutes personally - even though they had a lot more of the ball. For Italy it was basically a reversal of the Spain/Italy game which was also IMO extremely tight overall despite Spain's possessional dominance. However - Italy swept through group stage playing entertaining football, showed all sides of the game to knock out world #1 Belgium, edged one of their traditional rivals and recent bogey teams in the semis, and then edged the hosts in the final. They're fully deserved winners when you consider the whole competition, which is welcome, especially after Portugal last time. Edited July 12, 2021 by ponsaelius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonArmy1892 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Italy had two players who can control the midfield in Jorginho and Verratti, and that's what happened after the first frantic 30 mins or so. Rice and Phillips have done well, but neither are totally comfortable on the ball like the Italian two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happinesstan Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 2 minutes ago, ponsaelius said: I think Italy were only slightly the better team over 120 minutes personally - even though they had a lot more of the ball. For Italy it was basically a reversal of the Spain/Italy game which was also IMO extremely tight overall despite Spain's possessional dominance. However - Italy swept through groups stages playing entertaining football, showed all sides of the game to knock out world #1 Belgium, edged one of their traditional rivals and recent bogey teams in the semis, and then edged the hosts in the final. They're fully deserved winners when you consider the whole competition, which is welcome, especially after Portugal last time. I agree with this, but they went for it, and we let them. Therefore they were the best team in the game. We had the better squad but it's worthless if you're not prepared to use it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjohnson Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 hour ago, Wullie said: Now England can experience it?? It's been an England trait in major tournament big games for as long as I can remember. We score very early, cede possession and eventually get done. Croatia 2018 (Trippier after 5 mins) Iceland 2016 (Rooney after 4 mins) Portugal 2004 (Owen after 3 mins) Brazil 2002 (Owen after 23 mins) Argentina 1998 (Owen put us 2-1 up after 16 mins) Germany 1996 (Shearer after 3 mins) So six times in 25 years what we've seen on a weekly basis for the last two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, ToonArmy1892 said: Italy had two players who can control the midfield in Jorginho and Verratti, and that's what happened after the first frantic 30 mins or so. Rice and Phillips have done well, but neither are totally comfortable on the ball like the Italian two. Yeah this was always the fear really going into this game. Same thing happened against Croatia in 2018. Part of it is the psychology of going ahead - but equally it's not having players who can dictate the dempo of a game and keep the ball in midfield. Even though Rice had probably the best game I've ever seen him have - he's just not a player who's ever going to dictate the tempo of a game. Midfield is the biggest problem going into Qatar. Unless Bellingham can progress quickly, which is a lot to ask of a 19 year old (as he will be by next winter), I don't see an obvious solution. So then the idea perhaps has to be to find a way to play and win without that control. Edited July 12, 2021 by ponsaelius Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huss9 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 46 minutes ago, Interpolic said: There was a prevailing issue with the subs in the knockouts where Southgate was unwilling to take Sterling or Kane off, and also unwilling to to have anything less than 7 defence-minded players on the field. Arguably 8 or 9 defence-minded players when Saka and Mount seemed to be mainly in for their defensive discipline. That limits us massively in terms of who we can bring on, and meant last night we had Rashford and Sancho sat on the bench for ET instead of attacking tired Italian defenders. Contrast that with Italy who were willing to change their entire front 3. Sterling should have been off tbh as he was quiet all game and we weren't even keeping him on to take one of the pens. maybe the media can give him a couple of days off, but then these things need saying and debating. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonArmy1892 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ponsaelius said: Yeah this was always the fear really going into this game. Same thing happened against Croatia in 2018. Part of it is the psychology of going ahead - but equally it's not having players who can dictate the dempo of a game and keep the ball in midfield. Even though Rice had probably the best game I've ever seen him have - he's just not a player who's ever going to dictate the tempo of a game. Midfield is the biggest problem going into Qatar. Unless Bellingham can progress quickly, which is a lot to ask of a 19 year old (as he will be by next winter), I don't see an obvious solution. So then the idea perhaps has to be to find a way to play and win without that control. England have never really had a centre mid that will just sit there and dictate the game, a pure passer, we always just seem to have box to box types. Scholes was the only one, and he was never used properly. Edited July 12, 2021 by ToonArmy1892 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 53 minutes ago, Wullie said: I thought Italy were absolutely awful in the first, what, 35 minutes? England were the better side in the first half by some distance. Disagree that Italy were absolutely awful. They were playing a European final away at Wembley and got a goal against them right from the start, with 60k fans pushing the opposition. They just took longer to settle and in a moment like this you need to be careful because with that atmosphere and the energy that goal gave England they could very well concede another one. However, apart from the goal England weren't threatening either. I think over the full 120 minutes, Italy was the slightly better team and deserved to win, and over the full tournament they were the clear deserved winners given the teams they beat on the way and they did that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 England have the 2 central midfielders who can break forward but are mostly cautious and defensive minded. If Foden or A N Other was to play in place of one of them then surely that would have to be balanced by an even more cautious, defensive minded player. Firstly, this would obviously changed the shape of the team and leave more room in central midfield for the opposition to exploit when posession is lost. Secondly, the even more defensive minded player would have to be someone like Kante, which we don't have. The answer may be that Southgate keeps the same shape, players and tactics but the players operate, when neccesary, 20ft or 40ft or so further up the pitch. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kimbo Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 57 minutes ago, joeyt said: Not sure if serious Oh, apparently they had one in qualifying. I barely followed England’s qualifying for this tournament never mind anyone else’s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Have to say I disagree with people who are saying Italy were "slightly" the better team last night. Thought it was emphatic how much better they were Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrmojorisin75 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 minute ago, triggs said: Have to say I disagree with people who are saying Italy were "slightly" the better team last night. Thought it was emphatic how much better they were Yeah, I agree with this. Our system totally fucked them and it took them 20 minutes or so to adjust, after that they took total control really. You can't have zero shots on target after a 2nd minute goal and claim you weren't a considerably inferior team on the night imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flip Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 4 minutes ago, triggs said: Have to say I disagree with people who are saying Italy were "slightly" the better team last night. Thought it was emphatic how much better they were Obviously Italy were the better side, but it's not like you were convinced that they were going to win it. Apart from Chiesa the other ones weren't creating anything. They fully deserved to win and controlled the game, but I really thought England were going to hold on. Immobile has been such a disappointing player. Doesn't do anything for me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 52 minutes ago, Doctor Zaius said: Not racist abuse like. Idiotic and vulgar, yes. Sky are describing it as racially aggravated abuse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJ9 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 I think it is fine to concede possession. However, the problem was that we didn't really press at the right times (when they crossed the halfway line), and we didn't attack the wide areas. We should have been able to have Sancho or Rashford hug the touchlines ready for a more direct ball/quick release. I think we could and should have picked them off. Anyway, I'm personally really sanguine about it all. We played a great tournament and were beaten by the better team on the night. It has been a great month and while it would have been great to win, as much as you want it, there's another team who want it just as much. It isn't a case of just picking the right players and we win...there's another team trying to do exactly the same...I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I sometimes think that in all of the analysis, we focus on what we should have done, and forget that we're up against a really good team, with great players and a freak of a goalkeeper. The reason we lost is because they won, and beat us fair and square. Love this team though and even if we never win anything, at least we had some fun for once! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Younger players are generally better in penalty shoot outs statistically speaking Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 One exciting thought is we have Bellingham to come into the middle of the park in the next year or two. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 minute ago, triggs said: Younger players are generally better in penalty shoot outs statistically speaking Is there data on that? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 1 minute ago, The Prophet said: One exciting thought is we have Bellingham to come into the middle of the park in the next year or two. Bellingham, Sancho, Foden and Saka are the future. It's exciting times really. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interpolic Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 Purely in terms of penalties, it's a pity Trippier and Mount were off. I'd absolutely bank on Trippier. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huss9 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, Shearergol said: Bellingham, Sancho, Foden and Saka are the future. It's exciting times really. should have been a bit more in the present tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 6 minutes ago, joeyt said: Is there data on that? Thread Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huss9 Posted July 12, 2021 Share Posted July 12, 2021 8 minutes ago, Shearergol said: Bellingham, Sancho, Foden and Saka are the future. It's exciting times really. should have been a bit more in the present tbh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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