Disco Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 The discourse around that decision has been so, so weird. I don't if it is just because it's become a bit of a meme and that so many non traditional people have got involved but I struggle to remember reading so much utter tosh on a single subject. Especially, and I think it has only been on pod that I've heard this argued, the Jorginho stamped follow-through on Grealish was way, way worse and their was a much better case for it being a red. Personally I thought it was and he knew exactly what he was doing but VAR was never going overrule the yellow once given. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scotty66 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 13 minutes ago, Disco said: The discourse around that decision has been so, so weird. I don't if it is just because it's become a bit of a meme and that so many non traditional people have got involved but I struggle to remember reading so much utter tosh on a single subject. Especially, and I think it has only been on pod that I've heard this argued, the Jorginho stamped follow-through on Grealish was way, way worse and their was a much better case for it being a red. Personally I thought it was and he knew exactly what he was doing but VAR was never going overrule the yellow once given. What that Saka challenge? It was a huge moment as Saka was away and we had them outnumbered on the counter. Worst case scenario we would have had a shot on target, but there was every chance someone would have won us the European Championships with the last kick of the game making themselves a legend of English football. But Chiellini pulling Saka by the scruff of the neck stops all that and ends up with him lifting the trophy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 By the letter of the law it was a yellow card - unless you make an argument that it was dangerous play (which while tenuous could perhaps be argued). Whether or not it SHOULD be a red is another question altogether. But this would require a rule change. And indeed if those rules were in place then Chiellini would simply not have made the challenge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 It was really bad defending by Chiellini before the drag back mind, should have been an easy ball to deal with Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ponsaelius Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 The thing with yellow + yellow = red is that it basically means players have an option in their locker to do one of those a game and get away with it. You don't really get away with it, because it means a yellow card is against your name for the rest of the match reducing your capacity to make more risky challenges, and of course places you at risk of further suspension for later games. However in the context of the final few minutes of a final there is basically no cost to such a decision in terms of jeopardy for the rest of the match and further suspension. So it makes it an absolute no brainer to do it if you're in Chiellini's situation. I think there is a legitimate argument to be made that cynical challenges with no attempt to play the ball should perhaps be a straight red card. It would probably make for more flowing games and more attacking football. But you are further reducing the role of defenders in the sport. There's already been a lot of concession this way over the last few decades. Quite rightly when you watch the way players like Maradona used to be assaulted on the pitch. However I feel it would personally be a step too far. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 10 minutes ago, Scotty66 said: What that Saka challenge? It was a huge moment as Saka was away and we had them outnumbered on the counter. Worst case scenario we would have had a shot on target, but there was every chance someone would have won us the European Championships with the last kick of the game making themselves a legend of English football. But Chiellini pulling Saka by the scruff of the neck stops all that and ends up with him lifting the trophy. We definitely didn't have them outnumbered on the counter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
joeyt Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Agree that the Jorginho tackle was a lot worse Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonArmy1892 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 If it was the other way round and Stones or Maguire did it, and we won on pens, everyone is saying it's clever play etc. Even if it was a straight red under the rules, he would probably still have done it, only had 2 mins to hold on and he wouldn't be taking a pel anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 minute ago, ToonArmy1892 said: If it was the other way round and Stones or Maguire did it, and we won on pens, everyone is saying it's clever play etc. Even if it was a straight red under the rules, he would probably still have done it, only had 2 mins to hold on and he wouldn't be taking a pel anyway. It was at the end of normal time. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToonArmy1892 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 9 minutes ago, Wullie said: It was at the end of normal time. Oh right. I'd had a few. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackandWhite Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 You see those kind of ‘tactical fouls’ regularly. Maybe not as extreme as pulling them by the collar. By the letter of the law, the referee has done the right thing. Whether you agree with the LOTG or not, and think that it should be considered serious foul play is up to you. Jorginho’s tackle is much more of a red card. Under today’s standards many referees would consider it serious foul play. He was a lucky boy, and I do believe the fact he rolled around afterwards had a say. It maybe made the referee think it wasn’t as bad because both players seemingly got hurt at first. Then VAR comes into the debate and whether it’s a clear and obvious error, etc. I am gutted for all you natural Geordies on here. A decisive penalty shoot out in a match like that is never something I want to have a stake in; it is the most heartbreaking way to lose. The fact that is adds to the long list of nearly moments even more gutting. However, there is much hope for the future. I believe we should start getting us to England going far in competitions from now on, possibly even winning one eventually. The youth teams have done well recently and we’re starting to see the first signs of it transitioning to the senior team. I hope by now the feelings have reconciled and you feel more hope than devastation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 8 minutes ago, BlackandWhite said: Jorginho’s tackle is much more of a red card. Under today’s standards many referees would consider it serious foul play. He was a lucky boy, and I do believe the fact he rolled around afterwards had a say. It maybe made the referee think it wasn’t as bad because both players seemingly got hurt at first. Then VAR comes into the debate and whether it’s a clear and obvious error, etc Totally agree hence why I thought it was pretty obvious he knew what he was doing. You see them given, you see them not and overall I think it's largely been a positive that the refs have erred on the side of leniency in the main - it's made for a much tournament. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 VAR should've given Jorginho a second yellow for the obvious simulation that the ref missed after he stood on Grealish. It was absolutely pathetic. Not that it would've had any impact on the game at that point mind. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
triggs Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 What about the multiple examples of simulation from Kane and Sterling throughout the game? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smal Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 They're on my team so no, no cards for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 25 minutes ago, Smal said: They're on my team so no, no cards for them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pata Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 50 minutes ago, Disco said: Totally agree hence why I thought it was pretty obvious he knew what he was doing. You see them given, you see them not and overall I think it's largely been a positive that the refs have erred on the side of leniency in the main - it's made for a much tournament. The way Jorginho went to the challenge meant he knew what he was doing, there's absolutely nothing to be gained by stepping on the ball there except an excuse for the very likely stamp that followed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prophet Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 I've also noticed lots of casual viewers saying stuff like 'at least we played the right way, wouldn't want my son growing up any other way bbz xxx' and citing the Chiellini challenge. It was a bog standard yellow card. As been said the Jorginho challenge was a much stronger case for a red. I personally thought the ref got it just about right, but I can see both sides of the argument. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 Think this hurts more as the days go by. Thought I was at peace with it Sunday night. What could have been though man! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
samptime29 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, Anderson said: Think this hurts more as the days go by. Thought I was at peace with it Sunday night. What could have been though man! I'm trying not to think about it. Edited July 13, 2021 by samptime29 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
huss9 Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 1 hour ago, Anderson said: Think this hurts more as the days go by. Thought I was at peace with it Sunday night. What could have been though man! yup. hurts more. and the anger rises. we could have done so much better. dont blame the players for this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 I'm still absolutely gutted, proper sulking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolfcastle Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Just shows that its a mugs game, the risk/reward is out of whack. From the winners perspective I'm already completely over it but know I'd still be boiled if we'd lost. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 Love the way @Mike is in here low-key liking every anti-England post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
astraguy Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) I haven't felt a connection to an England side since the 2010 world cup ended and we then appointed Roy hogson.Fair play for making history and maybe it's due to supporting nufc too but i never felt England would get past tougher tougher Teams without some kind of luck,I don't rate Southgate in the slightest i just feel he is getting the luckiest routes abit like Brucie with late goals or Pens etc the world cup draw will be interesting. Also the fans of ours ruin it for everyone, the amount of flags out Sunday compared to the start of the tournament was like clap for the nhs look at me again Edited July 14, 2021 by astraguy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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