Kid Icarus Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 3 minutes ago, Lazarus said: Cant be arsed with an argumenmt at this time of night but its interesting that those names are all pro trump, except Kennan who died in 2005. And Hitchens is a special kind of clown. John Mearsheimer and John Pilger are not in any way shape or form pro-Trump. Greenwald lost the plot so much with the democrats that he, well, completely lost the plot, but he wasn't pro-Trump like, he supported Bernie Sanders IIRC. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ManDoon said: I think it’s entirely possible some people are just bad. I’m not sure how that’s become a contentious viewpoint in modern discourse. You can hold the position that Putin is a fundamentally bad person I don’t see how that’s like some bastion of simplistic thinking. He’s ex KGB, ultra paranoid despot, who once engineered a bombing of his own citizens: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_apartment_bombings It’s human nature to side with/empathize with people. Without digging into the minutiae of the political machinations, I believe he’s a dictator, and like most of them he’s going out the same way, alone, paranoid and cut off. The argument isn't that he isn't bad, it's that boiling situations (not necessarily this one, just in general) down to only good or bad people doing good or bad things, combined with a rejection of any factors outside of that framework - such as 'good' people doing bad things and 'bad' people doing good things - is overly-simplistic and can undermine objectivity. e.g. Historians generally agree that the treaty of Versailles was a contributing factor that lead to the rise of Hitler, it shouldn't be overlooked or rejected just because Hitler and the Nazis were also bad. Edited March 12, 2022 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Super Duper Branko Strupar Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 hour ago, RealGoneKid said: Is Russell Kremlin based all of a sudden ? Free speech tops anyones proclivity to only cling to one side of an issue . People that want to close down debate / alternative views - are aping Stalin Mao and Hitler . This is Britain lets keep debate open and speech free What the fuck happened to him, man. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rafalove Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 hour ago, Lazarus said: Cant be arsed with an argumenmt at this time of night but its interesting that those names are all pro trump, except Kennan who died in 2005. And Hitchens is a special kind of clown. Not sure Hitchens was pro Trump, he was until recent events pro Putin I think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobloblaw Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 2 hours ago, ManDoon said: I mean if you immediately call someone childish for believing in the “bad man theory” of history. I can see it as as theory of Law? Obvs no geopolitical event can be condensed into simple binary stuff and I never suggested it could be. So you didn't know what it was, and just googled it and regurgitated the first result. It is an extension of the Great Man Theory. That theory has been eschewed for over 100 years. Evidence: First google result is this - https://definitions.uslegal.com/b/bad-man-theory/ EDIT: It is interesting that you would support that interpretation, instead of the "history from below" interpretation. Edited March 12, 2022 by bobloblaw Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macphisto Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 For those asking what crimes has Ambramovich committed? Sanctions are not about identifying guilty parties responsible for certain actions. Sanctions are a way to coerce a country into changing its actions. Often they will target the very rich as those are the people who have direct access to those in power. It also weakens the support base for those in power. If anything, in theory it is probably best to target innocent rich people as they would then have more cause to try to implement change. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovagod Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 4 hours ago, ManDoon said: I can’t believe he used to smart and funny. I guess he realized that the money and clicks is in barely coherent conspiracy theories. What a shame. I can’t believe that he used to be smart and funny either Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobloblaw Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 21 minutes ago, macphisto said: For those asking what crimes has Ambramovich committed? Sanctions are not about identifying guilty parties responsible for certain actions. Sanctions are a way to coerce a country into changing its actions. Often they will target the very rich as those are the people who have direct access to those in power. It also weakens the support base for those in power. If anything, in theory it is probably best to target innocent rich people as they would then have more cause to try to implement change. You a big fan of civil forfeitures? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
macphisto Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 2 minutes ago, bobloblaw said: You a big fan of civil forfeitures? A difficult question to answer, in general no I'm not in favour of them as they presume people are guilty. Difference with sanctions is that in most cases sanctions are only implemented when there has been a violation of international law or agreements and a country has been found "guilty". Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stifler Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Russell Brand has never been smart nor funny. He’s always been and always will be an arrogant prick who will do anything that is popular for the attention, be that pretending to stand for the Labour Party, or making videos on conspiracy theories. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
GeordieDazzler Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 A true blue Tory denying close links with Russians? Well I never... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 11 hours ago, ManDoon said: It’s a fundamental problem with how society is constructed. All your favorite things get commodified and become attached to shit people, and shit practices. That’s the only way capitalism can operate as profit motive only allows for that. I find statements such as ‘football clubs are different, they should be protected’ really odd. Well, yeah, but there’s absolutely nothing that isn’t subject to rampant capitalism, including all of our personal relationships. Why should football be any different? For example, if we’re not making moves to ensure that we can properly raise our kids without sending them to nursery when they’re 6 months old, which impacts massively on their development and ultimately their mental health, why are we bothered about football? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 18 minutes ago, GeordieDazzler said: A true blue Tory denying close links with Russians? Well I never... To be fair to him, he will only know of Abramovic as a good guy who he will have had a very good working relationship with, it’s unfair to ask him to condemn Abramovic, condemn the war on Ukraine, aye, which I’m sure he has or does, but I’m a little uncertain the likes of him should be the ones to literally condemn the likes of Abramovic. These reporters and journos should be asking the people who allowed him to buy Chelsea, homes all over London, those who bought shares in his companies and the government who only sanctioned him out of self interest, knowing what he was before this all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RS Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Proof that sportswahing works. Chelsea fans now “pro putin” as their club is negatively affected. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hovagod Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 Somebody mentioned that game in 2004. Unless I'm wrong, that was the game which we sang 'If the Russian goes to prison, you'll be fucked.' So I am really not sure why football journalists are now telling us football fans about dirty money like we did not already know. I truly used to fantasise about this happening to Chelsea- the whole thing was just so massively unfair. Of course now any joy is undercut by the unease over our own ownership. Still, though. Funny. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazarus Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 7 hours ago, Kid Icarus said: John Mearsheimer and John Pilger are not in any way shape or form pro-Trump. Greenwald lost the plot so much with the democrats that he, well, completely lost the plot, but he wasn't pro-Trump like, he supported Bernie Sanders IIRC. I took Mearsheimer to be pro trump from here: https://lobelog.com/bacevich-and-mearsheimer-on-year-one-of-the-trump-administration/ Quote A year ago I was optimistic because I thought Trump represented a force for change And I took Pilger to be pro trump from his comments here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilger#Comments_about_Donald_Trump_and_Hillary_Clinton Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Linton Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 8 hours ago, neesy111 said: What the hell has happened in this thread. "Free speech!" "Be careful what you wish for!" Just need a good old "Do your own research!" for the full set. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
christ Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 I think Pilger’s assessment of Trump is pretty accurate, and I’m anything but pro-Trump. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 47 minutes ago, GeordieDazzler said: A true blue Tory denying close links with Russians? Well I never... Lampards a gimp and a shite manager to boot. Edited March 12, 2022 by Heron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) The more and more I think about this whole scenario, the more it literally boils down to whose, whose allies and whose been daft or extreme enough to be caught or villified. Nearly anyone with any degree of money has probably been a cunt somewhere down the line. That's why I'm poor... Edited March 12, 2022 by Heron Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 51 minutes ago, GeordieDazzler said: A true blue Tory denying close links with Russians? Well I never... What’s your thoughts on Howe dodging questions about our own owners and what they get up to? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest HTT II Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 As for Chelsea fans ‘sticking up’ for Abramovic, it’s natural and an element of the tribal aspect of football. He’s their owner, he has revolutionised their club and been nothing but a great owner, they must be devastated and it’s hard to accept and even fathom what he was/has been as an owner and everything that comes with football with a war, death, politics and such. The sad thing in all of this is, a football club and it’s fans get to suffer through no fault of their own then somehow get to be the ones whose morality is questioned or expected to rise above anyone else’s. Everyone knew Abramovic was a wrong ‘un, the powers that be especially, and it’s only now when it’s most convenient something is being done about it and even then it’s half arsed and self serving. I sympathise with Chelsea fans and squirm at the likes of Lampard being asked to condemn someone or something that’s got nowt to do with him personally. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heron Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 1 minute ago, HTT II said: As for Chelsea fans ‘sticking up’ for Abramovic, it’s natural and an element of the tribal aspect of football. He’s their owner, he has revolutionised their club and been nothing but a great owner, they must be devastated and it’s hard to accept and even fathom what he was/has been as an owner and everything that comes with football with a war, death, politics and such. The sad thing in all of this is, a football club and it’s fans get to suffer through no fault of their own then somehow get to be the ones whose morality is questioned or expected to rise above anyone else’s. Everyone knew Abramovic was a wrong ‘un, the powers that be especially, and it’s only now when it’s most convenient something is being done about it and even then it’s half arsed and self serving. I sympathise with Chelsea fans and squirm at the likes of Lampard being asked to condemn someone or something that’s got nowt to do with him personally. I agree with most of this, but they absolutely can condemn it. They just don't want to have themselves washed with hypocrisy. Yet journos etc. Expect fans to be and all the peasants accuse one another of varying degrees of it. Football is corrupt and ran by twats by and large, at any top level club. Sadly, football managers in the PL are on a massive platform to bring bad stories into the light and to peoples attention. They can influence many of us peasants. So they have to expect to be asked. It's their own prerogative how they answer it thoigh and they shouldn't be villified for their answers (unless they're an obviously horrendous take). Which of course, blurs the lines. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kid Icarus Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 (edited) 34 minutes ago, Lazarus said: I took Mearsheimer to be pro trump from here: https://lobelog.com/bacevich-and-mearsheimer-on-year-one-of-the-trump-administration/ And I took Pilger to be pro trump from his comments here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pilger#Comments_about_Donald_Trump_and_Hillary_Clinton Aye they're definitely not pro-Trump. The Mearsheimer quote is similar to what I'd say about him with TPP (his ignorance or pettiness resulted in an unexpected net win) but it doesn't mean I support him or that I don't think that he's a dangerous megalomaniac who should be anywhere near power. The John Pilger comments are pretty standard fair on the left and fairly accurate imo. Edited March 12, 2022 by Kid Icarus Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted March 12, 2022 Share Posted March 12, 2022 That’s fair enough. But there’s not enough in for the significant minority who chant Abramovich’s name during things like a clap for Ukraine - however benign and token that gesture may be. We’ll have a similar issue down the line no doubt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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