brummie Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: I don't agree re: Ashworth @Kid Icarus but let's move on. I don't think he should be allowed to take the job for this summer's window unless the fee is obscene. Like £30m+. Get him for September for the quoted £15m-20m. How does this work with the contracts of people who are, to all intents and purposes, not football staff. He's not a player, he's not a manager, so how would his contract be any different to that of anyone in a 'normal' day to day job? Not coming at this from an angle btw - I have no dog in this race - just wondering aloud. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikky Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 6 minutes ago, brummie said: How does this work with the contracts of people who are, to all intents and purposes, not football staff. He's not a player, he's not a manager, so how would his contract be any different to that of anyone in a 'normal' day to day job? Not coming at this from an angle btw - I have no dog in this race - just wondering aloud. I am guessing he’s signed a contract for X years - if Man U make an approach then I am assuming it’s built into his contract that X amount is payable to release him early or to break the contract? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paully Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 As I said last week, make him rot - I’m not arsed if we get a penny just make him do the maximum amount of gardening leave. Ferk them and ferk him! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abacus Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 If they don't settle a huge compensation fee, I would be demanding daily before and after pictures of his garden. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 I’d be shocked if he stays on ice until 2026. We’ll negotiate a deal, get a nice wad of cash, and he’ll be in place at ManU by this time next year at the latest. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 I think it is more likely that he has a regular employment contract, which will contain a lengthy notice period and a a number of restrictive covenants for the following 12 months after he has left the business. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiresias Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 I mean this is just the old life of brian haggling sketch, We've said £20m they've said £20m you're having a laugh £5m and then in two weeks time we will have ended up on £15m and he starts in September Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kanji Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: I think it is more likely that he has a regular employment contract, which will contain a lengthy notice period and a a number of restrictive covenants for the following 12 months after he has left the business. Yep with some type non compete / gardening leave built in etc. which is why the current situation is probably all part and parcel of it. @The College Dropout and @Kid Icarus I think you both are more or less saying the same thing about Bloom and Ashworth. Bloom’s company with the proprietary data needed to be implemented into the football world intelligently enough to get many many many people bought in, which is likely what Ashworth was good at. Even the most modern managers in Potter and De Zerbi also need to believe that the data and scouting can work in football. You don’t fluke the type of reputation he has in football relying on other people’s work and getting credit for it. He’s never ever said he’s a scouting or data genius, he’s always used that damn wheel analogy. What he’s literally the best Englishman in his field, at setting up the operations to implement the game plan across all levels. Edited February 19 by Kanji Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 18 minutes ago, timeEd32 said: You’ve done this before and I know you’re probably trolling, but come on. Two years ago Man United’s wage bill was more than double Newcastle’s. After you were “hamstrung by FFP” it was reduced to £331m, still £144m more than NUFC’s. Also, since you only like to discuss transfer fees, I’m sure you saw the UEFA report that said Man United had assembled the most expensive squad of all time. Newcastle appeared in that report as well, almost £1 billion pounds behind. I did see the report, and I still can't understand where the total came from to be honest. Even still, I've added up all the fees, assuming add-ons have been maxed out, which a lot of them haven't been. No idea where the total of £1.2b for last years squad is coming from. £880m is what I got, and that includes some players from a decade ago and others who haven't played games in years or were at other clubs. Trying to suggest Jones and Bailly were part of our squad is stretching the agenda extremely thin. De Gea - £18m Lindelof - £38m Bailly - £30m Jones - £16.5m Maguire - £80m Martinez - £55m Ronaldo - £12m Fernandes - £67m Martial - £45m Rashford - free Greenwood - free Malacia - £15m Eriksen - free Sabitzer - £2m loan fee Weghorst - £2m loan fee Diallo - £35m Fred - £47m Varane - £41m Casemiro - £70m Dalot - £19m Antony - £86m Heaton - free Shaw - £30m Sancho - £73m Pellistri - £9m Wan Bissaka - £50m Van de Beek - £40m Garnacho - £400k Bishop - £500k Dubravka - £2m loan fee Butland - loan, no fee Williams, McTominay, Elanga, Mengi, Tuanzebe, Mejbri, Shoretire, Vitek, Iqbal, Mainoo, Jurado, McNeill - free Total: £883.5m Had a look at your squad. I'll use the same rules as above and include all loans and add ons. Dubravka - £5m Karius - free Pope - £10m Gillespie - free Trippier - £15m Dummett - free Botman - £35m Schar - £3m Lewis - £15m Targett - £15m Krath - £5m Manquillo - £4.5m Ashby - £3m Burn - £13m Joelinton - £40m Gordon - £45m ASM - £20m Ritchie - £10m Fraser - free Murphy - £12m Almiron - £21m Matty & Sean Longstaff - free Willock - £25m Anderson - free Bruno G - £40m Miley - free Wilson - £20m Isak - £63m Wood - £25m Shelvey - £12m Darlow - £4m Clarke - £5m Hayden - £2.6m Hendrick - free Kuol - £300k (couldn't see add ons so lets pretend there was none) Total - £468m I'm maybe making a massive error somewhere, but I certainly don't see where our squad cost nearly a billion pounds more than yours. It cost double yours, and we have a much higher wage bill, but we have triple your revenue. From what I can see, it's in proportion. We've also pretty much spent the same since the Saudi's came in, and the wage bill and squad cost will start to close and quickly. Please tell me where I'm wrong, as I'm usually baffled by these squad cost claims as they're always miles off the mark and seem to be taken at face value by everyone. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 45 minutes ago, brummie said: How does this work with the contracts of people who are, to all intents and purposes, not football staff. He's not a player, he's not a manager, so how would his contract be any different to that of anyone in a 'normal' day to day job? Not coming at this from an angle btw - I have no dog in this race - just wondering aloud. It seems he has a v. long notice period/ gardening leave if going to a rival hence the mentions of 2026. That is seemingly what is in the contract he signed as a default. He/Man U can negotiate to break that leave period earlier. I don't think we should budge for the summer unless the fee is incredible. Legally we seem to have him tied up until 2026 if he wants to join a rival. He could quit and probably leave earlier. But he still would need to comply with the non-compete clause he seemingly has. Good work by the leadership to set it up like this btw. He had a tough situation to get him out of at Brighton and we've made it tougher to leave us. Well done. --- I stand by the most important people at the club are the leadership. Saudi + Staveley and co. I think Staveley and co. will be close to this situation and will have a hand in his replacement and I back them to make a good decision for replacement and negotiating Ashworth's release. Edited February 19 by The College Dropout Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parsley Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 13 minutes ago, Froggy said: I did see the report, and I still can't understand where the total came from to be honest. Even still, I've added up all the fees, assuming add-ons have been maxed out, which a lot of them haven't been. No idea where the total of £1.2b for last years squad is coming from. £880m is what I got, and that includes some players from a decade ago and others who haven't played games in years or were at other clubs. Trying to suggest Jones and Bailly were part of our squad is stretching the agenda extremely thin. Reveal hidden contents De Gea - £18m Lindelof - £38m Bailly - £30m Jones - £16.5m Maguire - £80m Martinez - £55m Ronaldo - £12m Fernandes - £67m Martial - £45m Rashford - free Greenwood - free Malacia - £15m Eriksen - free Sabitzer - £2m loan fee Weghorst - £2m loan fee Diallo - £35m Fred - £47m Varane - £41m Casemiro - £70m Dalot - £19m Antony - £86m Heaton - free Shaw - £30m Sancho - £73m Pellistri - £9m Wan Bissaka - £50m Van de Beek - £40m Garnacho - £400k Bishop - £500k Dubravka - £2m loan fee Butland - loan, no fee Williams, McTominay, Elanga, Mengi, Tuanzebe, Mejbri, Shoretire, Vitek, Iqbal, Mainoo, Jurado, McNeill - free Total: £883.5m Had a look at your squad. I'll use the same rules as above and include all loans and add ons. Reveal hidden contents Dubravka - £5m Karius - free Pope - £10m Gillespie - free Trippier - £15m Dummett - free Botman - £35m Schar - £3m Lewis - £15m Targett - £15m Krath - £5m Manquillo - £4.5m Ashby - £3m Burn - £13m Joelinton - £40m Gordon - £45m ASM - £20m Ritchie - £10m Fraser - free Murphy - £12m Almiron - £21m Matty & Sean Longstaff - free Willock - £25m Anderson - free Bruno G - £40m Miley - free Wilson - £20m Isak - £63m Wood - £25m Shelvey - £12m Darlow - £4m Clarke - £5m Hayden - £2.6m Hendrick - free Kuol - £300k (couldn't see add ons so lets pretend there was none) Total - £468m I'm maybe making a massive error somewhere, but I certainly don't see where our squad cost nearly a billion pounds more than yours. It cost double yours, and we have a much higher wage bill, but we have triple your revenue. From what I can see, it's in proportion. We've also pretty much spent the same since the Saudi's came in, and the wage bill and squad cost will start to close and quickly. Please tell me where I'm wrong, as I'm usually baffled by these squad cost claims as they're always miles off the mark and seem to be taken at face value by everyone. If you're including January business, ie Gordon, in last season's squad, you should also probably remove Wood and Shelvey. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shearergol Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 14 minutes ago, Froggy said: I did see the report, and I still can't understand where the total came from to be honest. Even still, I've added up all the fees, assuming add-ons have been maxed out, which a lot of them haven't been. No idea where the total of £1.2b for last years squad is coming from. £880m is what I got, and that includes some players from a decade ago and others who haven't played games in years or were at other clubs. Trying to suggest Jones and Bailly were part of our squad is stretching the agenda extremely thin. Hide contents De Gea - £18m Lindelof - £38m Bailly - £30m Jones - £16.5m Maguire - £80m Martinez - £55m Ronaldo - £12m Fernandes - £67m Martial - £45m Rashford - free Greenwood - free Malacia - £15m Eriksen - free Sabitzer - £2m loan fee Weghorst - £2m loan fee Diallo - £35m Fred - £47m Varane - £41m Casemiro - £70m Dalot - £19m Antony - £86m Heaton - free Shaw - £30m Sancho - £73m Pellistri - £9m Wan Bissaka - £50m Van de Beek - £40m Garnacho - £400k Bishop - £500k Dubravka - £2m loan fee Butland - loan, no fee Williams, McTominay, Elanga, Mengi, Tuanzebe, Mejbri, Shoretire, Vitek, Iqbal, Mainoo, Jurado, McNeill - free Total: £883.5m Had a look at your squad. I'll use the same rules as above and include all loans and add ons. Hide contents Dubravka - £5m Karius - free Pope - £10m Gillespie - free Trippier - £15m Dummett - free Botman - £35m Schar - £3m Lewis - £15m Targett - £15m Krath - £5m Manquillo - £4.5m Ashby - £3m Burn - £13m Joelinton - £40m Gordon - £45m ASM - £20m Ritchie - £10m Fraser - free Murphy - £12m Almiron - £21m Matty & Sean Longstaff - free Willock - £25m Anderson - free Bruno G - £40m Miley - free Wilson - £20m Isak - £63m Wood - £25m Shelvey - £12m Darlow - £4m Clarke - £5m Hayden - £2.6m Hendrick - free Kuol - £300k (couldn't see add ons so lets pretend there was none) Total - £468m I'm maybe making a massive error somewhere, but I certainly don't see where our squad cost nearly a billion pounds more than yours. It cost double yours, and we have a much higher wage bill, but we have triple your revenue. From what I can see, it's in proportion. We've also pretty much spent the same since the Saudi's came in, and the wage bill and squad cost will start to close and quickly. Please tell me where I'm wrong, as I'm usually baffled by these squad cost claims as they're always miles off the mark and seem to be taken at face value by everyone. https://ecfil.uefa.com/2023 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Parsley said: If you're including January business, ie Gordon, in last season's squad, you should also probably remove Wood and Shelvey. Why? I've included every player that was part of both squads in 22/23. I've included Diallo, Bailly and Phil bloody Jones in ours. 5 minutes ago, Shearergol said: https://ecfil.uefa.com/2023 Aye I know where the figure came from, I'm just saying it's wrong. Unless I've made a glaring error. Edited February 19 by Froggy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
duo Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 6 hours ago, Froggy said: What doesn't make sense? Since the Saudi's came in we've both spent around £400m have we not? That's despite us having 3x your revenue. We desperately needed a striker and midfielder last January and couldn't afford it. Had to sign Weghorst and Sabitzer on loan. We couldn't afford to buy Amrabat outright in the summer for 20 odd million and had to sign him on loan. The notion that Newcastle are hamstrung by FFP and we aren't is nonsense. We can spend £150-200m each season, which is reasonable given our turnover. Which we can't Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Froggy Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, duo said: Which we can't Well you can, and have. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
thebalersfull Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 I got some info about this (from his best mate) and apparently he's not been happy for a while, PIF have restricted his role and he doesn't get the freedom he was expecting to do his job, so I guess can't blame him for wanting to leave Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 16 minutes ago, The College Dropout said: It seems he has a v. long notice period/ gardening leave if going to a rival hence the mentions of 2026. That is seemingly what is in the contract he signed as a default. He/Man U can negotiate to break that leave period earlier. I don't think we should budge for the summer unless the fee is incredible. Legally we seem to have him tied up until 2026 if he wants to join a rival. He could quit and probably leave earlier. But he still would need to comply with the non-compete clause he seemingly has. Good work by the leadership to set it up like this btw. He had a tough situation to get him out of at Brighton and we've made it tougher to leave us. Well done. --- I stand by the most important people at the club are the leadership. Saudi + Staveley and co. I think Staveley and co. will be close to this situation and will have a hand in his replacement and I back them to make a good decision for replacement and negotiating Ashworth's release. If he tried to leave before his notice period was up then he would be in breach of his contract, which we would seek damages for and push through a block on him starting any new employment until the notice period is completed. He would end up being worse off as he wouldn’t be paid during this time then. The only way he could leave early is if it was by mutual agreement. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbandit Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, thebalersfull said: I got some info about this (from his best mate) and apparently he's not been happy for a while, PIF have restricted his role and he doesn't get the freedom he was expecting to do his job, so I guess can't blame him for wanting to leave Who’s his best mate? Dave Brailsford? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gallowgate Toon Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, thebalersfull said: I got some info about this (from his best mate) and apparently he's not been happy for a while, PIF have restricted his role and he doesn't get the freedom he was expecting to do his job, so I guess can't blame him for wanting to leave The interesting part here is if they restricted his role at some point during his post or from the outset - feels like these rumblings of discontent have been happening since the summer. If true too ofc. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joelinton7 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 1 minute ago, thebalersfull said: I got some info about this (from his best mate) and apparently he's not been happy for a while, PIF have restricted his role and he doesn't get the freedom he was expecting to do his job, so I guess can't blame him for wanting to leave So we employed him, told him what he’d be doing, he said “yes” and then we’ve just turned around and said “actually you’re not doing that”. I think it’s far more likely we’ve found him underwhelming/he’s not bringing what we thought he would or that we’ve realised over time that he’s not needed because his role is already adequately covered by Steve Nickson. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
janpawel Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 3 minutes ago, thebalersfull said: I got some info about this (from his best mate) and apparently he's not been happy for a while, PIF have restricted his role and he doesn't get the freedom he was expecting to do his job, so I guess can't blame him for wanting to leave What type of restrictions, as in they want other people with power to have their hand in thing's alongside Ashworth, as in PIF want more of a say than Ashworth would like etc? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lish007 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 5 hours ago, magorific said: Absolutely bang on. I know a few people who are involved in football data development, and Brighton was the first UK club to use AI-driven software which map every physical movement performed by every player in every half-decent league in the world to not only offer a picture of how good that player is now, but predict how they are going to perform in future (e.g. have they peaked? Will the way they move result in significant injury risks further down the line?). Crucially for Brighton's business model, it's not only informed their decision on who and when to buy, but who and when to sell. For example, they were offering Tariq Lamptey around the Premier League a couple of years ago just as he was making his first big impact in the team - because their data told them his style of play would cause persistent injury problems and he had already hit his maximum cash value. Unlike with the likes of Cucurella and Caicedo, they didn't manage to offload Lamptey. And can we get some of that AI juice for us? Fuck Ashworth, let's have Mr AI in charge. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
The College Dropout Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 7 minutes ago, Matt1892 said: If he tried to leave before his notice period was up then he would be in breach of his contract, which we would seek damages for and push through a block on him starting any new employment until the notice period is completed. He would end up being worse off as he wouldn’t be paid during this time then. The only way he could leave early is if it was by mutual agreement. Aye. I mean he can leave and have no job if he wants. But he can't join Man U. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt1892 Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 The club are in a strong position here and Ashworth probably earns less than Issac Hayden, so there will be no issue with covering his wages for the duration of his notice and it is unlikely to be included in FFP. Hopefully we can find a replacement soon enough but I don’t see us rolling over and letting him leave until after the summer. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
manorpark Posted February 19 Share Posted February 19 Just now, Matt1892 said: The club are in a strong position here and Ashworth probably earns less than Issac Hayden, so there will be no issue with covering his wages for the duration of his notice and it is unlikely to be included in FFP. Logically, any income we get from his move to Manchester will be "income" to the club and will increase our turnover figure for FFP. It doesn't matter that it might get called "compensation" I do not see how it can be recorded as anything other than income, in the accounts. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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