The Quarter Finals: Croatia, Argentina, Morocco, and France through

[ohmelads]

I don't think Southgate did much wrong. We were a bit unlucky with the ball going in off Maguire and the penalty miss, but we only have ourselves to blame. Fair play to France, it was a bloody tight game, but I feel we've failed to take the opportunity and let them off with one to be honest. That penalty miss will haunt Kane. There's no shame in going out to this France team, and on another day Kane puts that away and we might be sitting here singing Southgate's praises. Exactly the same last year when we lost the shootout to Italy.

 

With Southgate it's the bigger picture for me. He has an embarrassment of riches in attack, players scoring and assisting for fun in the Premier League who can't get into his England squads. I believe our best generation in decades - a far stronger bench than the 'golden generation'.  But he's had three tournaments now and I still don't see an identity, a style of play that defines England. I just wonder if someone else might come in with new ideas, inherit this hugely talented group and shake things up. There'll be players loyal to Southgate because he picks them no matter what, but I reckon there'd be a fair few happy to see him go. I'm not quite sure who we'd go for from here though. Pochettino if he was up for it would be a good shout.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by ohmelads

[TheBrownBottle]

23 minutes ago, ohmelads said:

 

A bit of context: 6 of those 12 defeats were draws and ended in penalty shootouts (England lost all 6 shootouts).

 

If England had won half of those shootouts, which statistically would be expected, then you're looking at 5 wins and 9 defeats against football's elite. That's probably more like 'par'. Removing context gives Southgate a free pass because it suggests we can't match these teams, when in fact we took them to pens many times. We aren't traditionally one of the top 4 or 5 in the world - I doubt anyone argues with that - but England have matched big sides prior to Southgate only to be undone by penaly shootouts.

 

 

 

Agreed - that's why I mention that (other than 2010) they were all narrow defeats; England usually lose to the big sides, but they usually do so by a narrow margin.  This is where both the hard luck stories and singling out of individuals comes from.  Normal performance for England is to beat who you'd expect them to, and get knocked out by the first major country they face.  The only times this has not happened in my lifetime are 94 (didn't qualify) and 14 (utterly shite and didn't get out of the group).  8 out of 10 WCs in my lifetime England have made it to the KOs, in 6 of those they made at least the QF, and the two they got knocked out in the L16 was to Argentina and Germany.

 

I don't agree with the statistical thing re penalties mind; chance is not the reason England lose on penalties, but a failure of technique and practice.  If it was just luck then, yes, you'd expect them to follow a coin-toss.

 

The point of course being that 18 and 22 were not exceptional; they are the rule

[TheBrownBottle]

11 minutes ago, ohmelads said:

With Southgate it's the bigger picture for me. He has an embarrassment of riches in attack, players scoring and assisting for fun in the Premier League who can't get into his England squads. I believe our best generation in decades - a far stronger bench than the 'golden generation'.  But he's had three tournaments now and I still don't see an identity, a style of play that defines England. I just wonder if someone else might come in with new ideas, inherit this hugely talented group and shake things up. There'll be players loyal to Southgate because he picks them no matter what, but I reckon there'd be a fair few happy to see him go. I'm not quite sure who we'd go for from here though. Pochettino if he was up for it would be a good shout.

Yep, that's pretty much my thinking too

[AJ9]

What is frustrating about the whole thing is that it feels people forget the penalty was to equalise, not to win. We were behind twice in the game and never really took the opportunity at 1-1 to make them think, change Henderson for someone, try and move the defensive line, have a more aggressive press…none. We saw against spurs what putting Lloris under pressure can do. We played well enough, but we never really took the initiative in the game IMO.

[Hanshithispantz]

Which manager is going to get England playing like Howe has us though?

 

IMO the manager has to be English, there was a weird disconnection with Capello especially I thought. Then you have to find someone good enough for the job, but not good enough that they  can get a proper club football gig (like Howe and Potter).

 

Not that there won’t be better options than Gareth out there, but trying to find them seems like an unnecessary risk given we’ve had 2 great tournaments, and were unfortunate to be knocked out in the quarters of this one.

 

USA looked really well coached, so I get why people would look at them (for example) and wonder why we’re not doing the same, there’s every chance it backfires though.

[AJ9]

If Southgate was willing to change then great. Maybe it would be a crazy shout but I would look at the following candidates - Poch, Rodgers, Postecoglou

[toon25]

I know one man who could jump straight in...

 

 

[AJ9]

Imagine the sound and splash back from that fuckin whale

[The Prophet]

If there's someone who'd be a marked improvement on Southgate, I'm all for him being moved upstairs. But there's no point in binning him for the sake of it.

 

This manager who plays exciting, successful football, who the FA can afford and have the ambition to recruit doesn't exist though. The next manager will probably be functional too 

[AJ9]

I’m coming across as aggressively anti Southgate because of comments made out of frustration. I know that we’ve improved, and as a nation we have no right to be expecting to win things. I appreciate our history in that we all remember 2014, Iceland etc. We aren’t a top tier nation, I get it, and he has done a great job, better than my expectations and most others. But, he has increased expectations because of the job he’s done. People see a team that could beat anyone on its day, and while it’s fine and dandy beating workmanlike sides on the way to a semi in 2018 and a final in 2020, we lack any sort of killer instinct to take that next step. It is incredibly reactive football against the top sides, in the moments that matter. We don’t make opponents think twice or have to adapt. Look at how many times we’ve tried to swing the big outswinger to Maguire for instance. It almost came off, like once. If he was capable of learning and growing fine, but this mantra of control, control control is great until we meet a more technical team, and we allow them to beat us. It’s flaccid and it’s a loser’s mentality against big nations. Yeah the answer is maybe not obvious as to who takes over but that shouldn’t mean we can’t criticise what we see. I’ll say it again, Kane’s missed pen was a chance to equalise, not win. We had already conceded the initiative to the French when we went 1-0 down and again when we were back to 1-1. Anyway, I’m banging on here so that’s me for now.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by AJ9

[UncleBingo]

We've definitely improved as a nation and Southgate has to be applauded for the progress we've made and the introduction of younger players. Unlike previous games, I thought we were desperately unlucky last night against the almost certain WC winners.

That said, I just don't see us winning a major competition with him in charge, unfortunately he has that stench of failure about him.

[Yorkie]

I absolutely do not subscribe to the pejorative and loaded view that "we lose as soon as we play someone good," because this tournament alone has demonstrated the intense closeness of competition in international football; not to mention the unfairness of that position generally when you compare this England side to the previous failures across most of our lifetimes. Besides, we've played and beaten some excellent sides on our way to this position. 

 

However, I have woken up with a feeling of immense frustration and can sympathise with those pointing out that we've lacked an edge on the two occasions we've played the most punishing sides. For all last night was about the finer margins and on another night it perhaps goes our way; I do feel like we've chucked the opportunity away a bit. Not just the penalty but not capitalising on the spell after the equaliser and gradually letting them back into it. Giroud had a chance right before his goal and we still didn't tighten up. 

 

I really like this England side and watching the interviews with Bellingham, Maguire, Walker, Kane and the manager only cements that admiration moreso; but yeah, can't help but feel it's another occasion - like Italy - where we've had a gun to their heads but hesitated. 

 

Ah well, the Euros is only a year and a half away and the bulk of this side will still be here and even more streetwise. We'll go into that with confidence again. 

[Jaqen]

The stuff about Southgate not 'learning' and costing us again seems like an opinion formed before the match that people have just stuck with. IMO it was nothing like the Italy or Croatia losses. 

 

Eye test and stats back up we were the more dangerous team, had the most possession and the better chances. 

 

Their defensive midfielder has banged one in from 25 yards and we've conceded a deflected header. We defended them pretty well for the most part. Mbappe never really had a sniff. 

 

If you repeat that game with the same chances a number of times we win the majority or at the very least take it to extra time. 

 

Most of the sides at international level don't have a strong identity or play great attacking football. Spain probably have the strongest identity and it resulted in them having 1000 passes and one effort on goal and going out. France are the favourites and have a stacked attack and barely created much against our supposed ropey defence. 

 

Cup competitions like this are very hard to win and decided on the smallest of margins. Pep is probably the best manager around managing the best club side and hasn't been able to win the champions League with City. 

 

Most frustrating part for me is I think Southgate actually has learnt quite a bit from the previous exits and I'd have been confident on us winning it all if we get through yesterday. 

 

[Astroblack]

I think Gareth did a good job. We had chances to win the game. We just came up short at the end of the day. It’s a tough one to take. Thank God there’s Newcastle to take my mind off things. Hurry up and start Premier League. 
 

and for the future of the England team, it’s in good stead. Quality players all over the pitch, good football being produced. I think we had a good World Cup, and if France win in, we’d have been their hardest game. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Astroblack

[astraguy]

Not making a sub till the 80minute was ridiculous and then not bringing on rashford till the 85th.according to Ben jacobs tuchel/ poch are interested 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by astraguy

[AJ9]

Yeah I mean, @Yorkie’s post is spot on. The look at the stats people, I get it, but it’s all a bit “but we won the passing”. At the end of the day, we’re out, again, when we could have been braver. It’s basically like game of thrones - the viper vs the mountain every time we come up against a top side. It’s irritating as fuck.

[Doctor Zaius]

That was our chance for the World Cup like. Just like the Euros were last year. Yet again we've failed to capitalise.

 

I was convinced had Kane scored that pen, instead of blasting it over, we'd have won but now I'm not so convinced. We let them back into it at 1-1. We didn't capitalise on our possession and take our chances. 

[Yorkie]

3 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

Yeah I mean, @Yorkie’s post is spot on. The look at the stats people, I get it, but it’s all a bit “but we won the passing”. At the end of the day, we’re out, again, when we could have been braver. It’s basically like game of thrones - the viper vs the mountain every time we come up against a top side. It’s irritating as fuck.

 

That was the very scenario I had in my head.

[rgk_lfc]

10 hours ago, toon25 said:

FIFA couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. That they could engineer some sort of situation that involved any sort of outcome that resulted in a particular team winning the WC by virtue of shite refereeing decisions is beyond me.

 

 

Not saying that. But FIFA could ensure from quarter finals onwards, avoid referees from the eight countries still in the competition. It should be reasonably easy to implement.

[The Prophet]

I wonder if a keeper with regular sized arms keeps the first strike out.

[toon25]

Have to say, watching Ronaldo huff his way through that second half was a joy to behold.

[Abacus]

I agree that for all his strengths, Southgate has flaws that can't be overlooked, and I also think that in the last two tournaments he and his teams were found out. 

 

The argument that he got us to a semi final and then a final previously is definitely undermined by the fact we got an incredibly lucky run in the knock out stages, and were effectively at home in the Euros. But then, when we finally lost those games, the disappointment was more that we were out-managed in the end and lost both those games with barely a whimper. There was a feeling of missed opportunity and that we could have done more if the team played to their strengths.

 

As for flaws, I often disagree with some of his squad and team selections, but there's probably not a manager alive who can keep everyone happy with those, so I'll leave that one. It's his tactics and passive in-game management which are the real criticism, i.e. the things you need to have to actually win something.

 

However, I don't feel that way about this tournament. 

 

He is still too cautious at times for me, but in fairness he did make some tactical tweaks in games which worked. Against France, some will point out his odd substitution of Saka, but in general I thought the team played well. In fact if anything I thought they edged it against a very good France team and probably should have won.

 

So this time I don't come away disappointed that we could have made a better effort and fading away when it really mattered. 

 

Instead, I come away rueing a missed penalty and a refereeing performance that was consistently poor all night. Saka in particular got nothing from him. It's not just sour grapes - these were potentially big decisions. One could have chalked off the opening France goal, another could have given another penalty or at the very least a dangerous free kick right on the edge of the box. Nothing Southgate could have done about any of that.

 

So oddly, whilst I don't rate him much for the previous campaigns where England finished higher, it's this tournament where we only got to the quarters but where I'm less critical. He seemed to have addressed some of his previous mistakes to me. 

 

If he has the drive and energy for one more tournament, I'd be tempted to give him a final crack at the Euros unless an outstanding candidate turns up and becomes available in the meantime.
 

[Kimbo]

Still feel a bit sick. I considered France the best side in the competition from the start and we should’ve had them. We would’ve been the best side in the semis IMO, which I never thought I would say about England.

 

On Southgate, I’m happy to stick with him until the Euros for lack of a better alternative. I do think he needs to tweak the squad and first team a bit. I’d like to see Philips replace Rice as the DM and we need to seek out new CB’s. Fuck knows how much football Maguire will be playing in the future and our backup options are poor. Players like Mount, Grealish, and Sterling need to be put on notice, they haven’t been good enough lately. Maddison and Barnes should be given a decent amount of playing time before the euros.

 

 

Edited December 11, 2022 by Kimbo

[samptime29]

Feel horribly low today. Hungover, England pain and working 10am to 8pm. Negged.

[gbandit]

Cannot even imagine being hungover and having to work, just couldn’t do it to myself