Hatem Ben Arfa

[Baggio]

Pip is spot on.

 

The 'losing the ball' comments are mythical, just look at his games for us last season (which is more time than he's been given for this one). Against Stoke, he only lost it once iirc, his Blackpool cameo didn't see him lose it from taking people on, just a blocked shot. The Everton game, i remember him losing it about 3 times, and one of them was after he slipped over.

 

It's unfair to pass judgement on him right now, there will be physical and mental aspects to his game that just aren't there yet, that he needs to get over in his own time.

 

He was playing in a completely different position though and you've got far more chance of losing it in the middle than out wide simply because of the number of players around you.

 

Jonas doesn't lose it much out wide but when he does try and drive through the middle he's surrounded, it will be the same for HBA if and when he's played there.

 

Excellent point, if Ben Arfa had stuck to his line while he was playing on the wing.

 

In truth, he pretty much drifted inside the whole time. There are specific comments from different users on this forum, in that Everton match thread, recognising how notable it was that his best work came through the middle. Just look at some of the runs he's done, the 2 most notable, have set up clear as day goal scoring chances for Carroll and Lovenkrands and that's in the tiny space of a couple of games. Imagine what he could do over a season.

 

Perhaps I should have gone into more detail, if you look at Jonas when he cuts in he can get away with it from deep and still have plenty of space, once he cuts in within 30 yards of the goal and gets anywhere near the middle he gets surrounded and quickly.

 

The same goes for Ben Arfa at Everton in that when he was picking the ball up out wide not far from the half way line he had plenty of space to run in to, however once you get anywhere near the area in the middle you're going to get pounced on which has been the case when he's played in there.

 

That's where Ben Arfa's different though. He's well known for his footwork, getting him out of the tiniest and toughest spots. I look at him now and I think, he's physically fit but in terms of the sharpness he needs to make his game work, he's 10% off. That quick footwork is what makes him such a threat but there's the old conundrum, he obviously needs competitive game time to get that extra oomph back but he can't get it with us playing so well.

 

I also look at him now and see a player not quite playing in the same way as he was before his injury. I don't think he has many demons per se but he doesn't seem quite as relaxed as before, looking like he has a point to prove and I think that answers the issue of being too eager and losing the ball.

 

Basically all i'm saying is, I just think he deserves some time to get back to find himself on the pitch and some time to be judged. I think some of the sweeping judgements on his game so far, like 'losing the ball', have been a little foolish and unfair as he's now spent a lot of his career here, playing after a very serious injury. Just look at the Demba Ba thread, it shows how many ill-timed comments, can be so wrong. Patience is a virtue and all that.

 

Nobody is saying that he won't improve when he's up to speed though, the point people are debating is will he improve us as a team if he replaces Best and at the moment that's debatable.

 

 

 

You said it. Unless you're genuinely saying the bit in bold, in the context that Ben Arfa isn't ever allowed to lose the ball?

 

 

Drogba was excellent at relieving pressure for Chelsea and everything went through him being the head of the team so I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

 

You say the better footballing teams in Europe do this but we're not one of them, we don't have the quality of players to be one of them and would get dissected if we tried to play that way, so we do what's effective for us and stick with the solid forward that soaks up all of the pressure and can bring our other players into play from there. If you look at how we played under Robson with Shearer relieving the pressure from the team with the quicker and technical players swarming around and it's similar to the role Best is playing now.

 

Your opinion that Ben Arfa will dribble past players to relieve pressure is all well and good when it comes off but when it doesn't we're instantly back under pressure and that's how it's been for every game he's featured up top for us, is he suddenly going to stop giving the ball away when he's up to speed? Well no and people have already pointed out when defending him that you're going to have to accept that he's going to lose it a lot while trying to be creative.

 

Shearer as the hold up man worked excellent, Drogba in that role worked for Chelsea, Adebayor is making that role work at Spurs and most importantly Best is making that role work for us and until it doesn't there is no reason at all to change it.

 

I've also said on the Best front, that it's a conundrum, with the team playing so well. I don't personally think Leon Best has been a critical part of our run, certainly not over the last 5 games at least and when he's not scoring, I don't think he's adding as much as Ben Arfa would. I'd be more concerned about breaking the team up for morale reasons, than losing Leon Best individually (I actually rate him by the way).

 

The comment about him improving when he is up to speed was a general comment about him as a player in everything he's doing, not a comment about any specific area of his game.

[Baggio]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

 

Yeah, like in the Blackburn game when we played Ben Arfa, Santon and Marveaux like everyone wanted.

[Guest hatem garrincha]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

 

Yeah, like in the Blackburn game when we played Ben Arfa, Santon and Marveaux like everyone wanted.

 

Do you think Pardew would allow HBA to be "crap" during 9 games - like Obertan - and maintain his confidence to the player for the following match ? Maybe he's a different player who deserves only one chance ? 

 

[Mr Logic]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

 

Yeah, like in the Blackburn game when we played Ben Arfa, Santon and Marveaux like everyone wanted.

 

Been here long enough to know you love nothing better than taking a contrary position to stir up some debate. Here of course you provide evidence in the shape of one game, a game where even our own players stopped to watch, as often as not, whenever Ben Arfa got the ball.

 

Best puts in a canny shift, but limits us as an outlet. Not to say he's one-dimensional, but he is simply limited in what he offers. We tend to pump balls towards him, he takes them down on his chest or head and tries to maintain possession long enough for other attackers to arrive.

 

Our main problem though is not who plays up front with Arfa but who plays as fullbacks. Two really strong fullbacks would free up our wide players to make more runs in behind the defence as they would not be so involved with helping out at the back. Then Best becomes peripheral and we're more suited to Ba or a Maiga, Erdinc type of forward.

 

Ben Arfa can't fashion chances with a static frontline, and the more he plays the more our own players will adjust to him and start to move into those spaces. Jonas, Marveaux, Ba and Obertan are all well suited to play these parts imo, the only thing missing is familiarity and two good FB's. Maybe Santon is one; but I forget, you already saw him play at Blackburn and have consigned that idea to the trash.

[Guest VaVaVoom]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

 

Yeah, like in the Blackburn game when we played Ben Arfa, Santon and Marveaux like everyone wanted.

 

Been here long enough to know you love nothing better than taking a contrary position to stir up some debate. Here of course you provide evidence in the shape of one game, a game where even our own players stopped to watch, as often as not, whenever Ben Arfa got the ball.

 

Best puts in a canny shift, but limits us as an outlet. Not to say he's one-dimensional, but he is simply limited in what he offers. We tend to pump balls towards him, he takes them down on his chest or head and tries to maintain possession long enough for other attackers to arrive.

 

Our main problem though is not who plays up front with Arfa but who plays as fullbacks. Two really strong fullbacks would free up our wide players to make more runs in behind the defence as they would not be so involved with helping out at the back. Then Best becomes peripheral and we're more suited to Ba or a Maiga, Erdinc type of forward.

 

Ben Arfa can't fashion chances with a static frontline, and the more he plays the more our own players will adjust to him and start to move into those spaces. Jonas, Marveaux, Ba and Obertan are all well suited to play these parts imo, the only thing missing is familiarity and two good FB's. Maybe Santon is one; but I forget, you already saw him play at Blackburn and have consigned that idea to the trash.

 

Absolutely spot on.

 

Our system now is a solid 4-4-2 which changes to 4-4-1-1 when Barfa comes on. Neither of them will be our predominant system once Barfa is up to speed and Santon is a regular at fullback.

 

Your point about the fullbacks and wingers is bang on and would not only create more space but better movement and more chances from Barfa and Cabaye through the middle.

 

a 4-2-3-1 will be the way forward when we are in the accendency and easily switchable to the 4-4-1-1 when we need to pack the midfield.

[Ronaldo]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

 

 

Woah, some of those passes were sublime.

 

But we can't drop Besty, it will change the team dynamics. 

 

Damn right it will.

 

Ludicrous.

[Tooj]

The key to that video as well is the off the ball movement of those around him. Ben Arfa had the vision to spot those runs, which were first class.

 

Ba's movement is up there, but I don't think the rest of our players compare in that regard. They also need to get out of the mindset like they have when he's came on in the last two Premier League games, of standing there and just watching him when he's got the ball at his feet.

[Mick]

The key to that video as well is the off the ball movement of those around him. Ben Arfa had the vision to spot those runs, which were first class.

 

Ba's movement is up there, but I don't think the rest of our players compare in that regard. They also need to get out of the mindset like they have when he's came on in the last two Premier League games, of standing there and just watching him when he's got the ball at his feet.

 

I think Cabaye, Marveaux and Jonas will all work well with Ben Arfa.  He's the nearest player we've had to Beardsley and I can't wait to see him playing week in and week out.

 

 

[TRon]

The reason they don't need someone to hold the ball up is because they have players who are good at controlling the ball and have good technique, so they are able to play the game in the opposition's half. Ben Arfa has sublime skills on the ball and is probably the player that is hardest to get the ball from because he's agile, quick and is so technically good. Ergo, we should play him, because like Jonas, he can help relieve pressure. There are many ways of relieving pressure. Players like Cabaye help us relieve pressure because they are composed on the ball and they don't give it away needlessly. Jonas helps us relieve pressure by being a willing runner with the ball and being someone who doesn't lose the ball without being fouled. Ben Arfa has the same skills as Jonas. He plays a riskier game but he's only done so when the risk was worth taking. I think you've come to a seriously fast conclusion on Ben Arfa's tendencies based on his eagerness to impress when he came on against Spurs, which is a shame because playing the likes of Ben Arfa and Marveaux is the best way to become a team that's able to maintain constant pressure on the opposition team, thus negating the need for a striker who can hold the ball up. You're heading into the wrong direction if you think we need to play Best to hold up the ball and relieve pressure. We need to play Ben Arfa because he's able to dribble past players with ease and by constantly doing this, defenders will back off and thus the pressure will be on the opposition, and not us. That's how we will become a good team. Doing the old having a big striker to hold up play thing isn't the solution and it's obvious that it isn't because none of the better footballing teams on the continent do this. Even a team like Chelsea, when they played Drogba alone up front, was much more technical and Drogba himself is extremely talented. Ba is far more like him than Best because Ba has good control, a decent turn of pace and is also willing to run the channels.

 

Drogba was excellent at relieving pressure for Chelsea and everything went through him being the head of the team so I'm not sure where you're going with that one.

 

You say the better footballing teams in Europe do this but we're not one of them, we don't have the quality of players to be one of them and would get dissected if we tried to play that way, so we do what's effective for us and stick with the solid forward that soaks up all of the pressure and can bring our other players into play from there. If you look at how we played under Robson with Shearer relieving the pressure from the team with the quicker and technical players swarming around and it's similar to the role Best is playing now.

 

Your opinion that Ben Arfa will dribble past players to relieve pressure is all well and good when it comes off but when it doesn't we're instantly back under pressure and that's how it's been for every game he's featured up top for us, is he suddenly going to stop giving the ball away when he's up to speed? Well no and people have already pointed out when defending him that you're going to have to accept that he's going to lose it a lot while trying to be creative.

 

Shearer as the hold up man worked excellent, Drogba in that role worked for Chelsea, Adebayor is making that role work at Spurs and most importantly Best is making that role work for us and until it doesn't there is no reason at all to change it.

 

Shearer and Drogba had great technique and good enough close control to be able to maintain possession when pressured. Ba is more like them than Best is.

 

And again, you're judging Ben Arfa on 180 minutes of football. I think you're being way too hasty. He doesn't have a record or history of losing the ball in key positions. People have said that he takes risks sometimes but he's not the type to take risks in the middle of the park. Look at the Everton match for a good example of what he can do on the ball and how he can help us relieve pressure. I think he lost the ball a few times in that match but all were when taking risks which were worth taking. He wasn't trying to take on the whole team from the halfway line like he tried to do twice against Spurs. I think the Spurs game is a complete one-off and will quickly be forgotten if Ben Arfa has a chance to start many games in a row and get back up to speed.

 

I think Ben Arfa would be even better when we're not forced to score a goal because he'll have loads more space to operate in. Again, the Everton match is a good example of how he can affect a game when he's fully fit, whereas in the Spurs match he came on when Spurs were defending with 9 or at times 10 men and he looked short of sharpness.

 

Best's close control is excellent, it's one of the strongest parts of his game now and it's superior to Ba's.

 

I'm not judging him on 180 minutes of football but it's interesting that you accuse me of judging him on such a short period yet you want me to judge him on the one good game he's had for us in a completely different position.

 

The questions hanging over him are can he form a partnership with Ba, is he capable of getting the amount of goals in that position and are we good enough to carry him when he's having an off day and until he plays and proves to us that he can make us a better team then we're going to go around in circles.

 

As I've said before I'd love him to come in and make us even better but until it happens my doubts will remain.

 

I must admit I'd thought you were a decent poster until this debate. Now I'm starting to think your football knowledge extends to the bloke in your avatar.

[ATB]

HBA and what he's capable of in a central position on Dailymotion "Ben Arfa et sa Vision du Jeu Surnaturelle"

 

 

Absolutely quality, we just have to get him on the pitch! I would definitely not hesitate to start him RW this weekend.

[Guest Dontooner]

The team is winning probably because we are playing tight and organize football. As we stand each player is working pretty hard for the team and i think it is a fairly obviously point. Also a fact is that this current team doesnt find it difficult to score goals against those we had went against.

 

We might look better at unlocking stubborn defenses with the flair players but also like a double edge sword , our defense weaken. Our defending is the reason why we are in the top half of the table, until Pardew could bed the flair players into the team while still keeping the defense as solid as it is.

 

Maybe the fans should be patient, i have some confidence that Pardew might slowly get it right especially with HBA...but i am slightly confused with how the team could be setup to play when we include a new number 9 striker into the team..

 

4-3-3? its a good headache though...

[AyeDubbleYoo]

That video is insane, incredible passing. Is Benzema available BTW?

[Taylor Swift]

Every time I catch a video of Ben Arfa, I am absolutely amazed at how good he is. I really hope that he can recover his pace/agility because he was an incredible footballer.

[Lush Vlad]

The key to that video as well is the off the ball movement of those around him. Ben Arfa had the vision to spot those runs, which were first class.

 

Ba's movement is up there, but I don't think the rest of our players compare in that regard. They also need to get out of the mindset like they have when he's came on in the last two Premier League games, of standing there and just watching him when he's got the ball at his feet.

 

I think Cabaye, Marveaux and Jonas will all work well with Ben Arfa.  He's the nearest player we've had to Beardsley and I can't wait to see him playing week in and week out.

 

 

 

Spot on.

[High Five o]

Every time I catch a video of Ben Arfa, I am absolutely amazed at how good he is. I really hope that he can recover his pace/agility because he was is an incredible footballer.

 

He will get back. Just needs a run of matches. It does not look like he lost the pace.

He still have the guts to try to get past a man.

 

His style is based on timing and pace. He need to get the timing correct again, as it all happens in great speeds. If his timing is 0,3 sec off, he will lose the ball.

Let him get a run like Obertan got in the start of the season, and he will be a integral part of our team.

 

Personally i am very excited, and can not wait to see him get a extended run of matches.

 

[Dr Venkman]

I wonder if we'll see a bit of Best/HBA up front in the lead up to Christmas? Or if he'll just go with it once Ba's off on his jollies.

 

Pardew's doing a great job but getting HBA fit and into the side and firing is a big test with us playing so well. Gonna be interesting to see how it pans out.

[durhamunigeordie]

I wonder if we'll see a bit of Best/HBA up front in the lead up to Christmas? Or if he'll just go with it once Ba's off on his jollies.

 

Pardew's doing a great job but getting HBA fit and into the side and firing is a big test with us playing so well. Gonna be interesting to see how it pans out.

 

If you mean leave Ba out in order to let Best/HBA get used to playing together then I can't see it. As much as it would be nice to be able to afford that luxury I just can't see Pardew leaving out his top scorer for any more games than he has to. Of course things change quickly in football, but at the moment it would be madness to do so.

[AyeDubbleYoo]

Every time I catch a video of Ben Arfa, I am absolutely amazed at how good he is. I really hope that he can recover his pace/agility because he was an incredible footballer.

 

Same, his level of talent is incredible, and very exciting how he carries the ball with total confidence in such tight spaces.

 

In a funny way he reminds me a bit of Jack Wilshere with more pace and trickery, they both carry the ball straight into space or at defenders with total confidence that they can find a pass. Love watching Wilshere for that reason, even though he's a knob.

[alexf]

Don't think people should get on his back if he loses the ball occasionally. Watch that Everton video that everyone continuously jizzes over and he runs into trouble alot in that as well, it's just the way he plays.

[Willow]

When we start losing a few matches, that's when we'll see HBA brought in I reckon. He'll offer something different when we need a little boost and I look forward to him producing, I just hope he's ready.

[Sifu]

If he comes on tomorrow (will be almost certain to be on the bench like), I can definitely see him score a goal.

[Guest hatem garrincha]

When a dirty player plays the victim :

 

 

“I felt like a war criminal. As if I committed a crime. I didn’t receive a yellow, the ref didn’t even call it foul ( the Ben Arfa challenge). The FA did an assessment and supported the decision. It was a tackle, and unfortunately he broke his leg.”

 

http://netherlands.worldcupblog.org/world-cup-2010/oranje-analysis-midfield.html

[BottledDog]

When a dirty player plays the victim :

“It was a tackle, and unfortunately he I broke his leg.”

 

 

[Guest hatem garrincha]

When a dirty player plays the victim :

“It was a tackle, and unfortunately he I broke his leg.”

 

 

De Jong invents the auto double-breaking leg theory.

[Guest hatem garrincha]

He's a very good football player. He doesn't need to play like that.