Unbelievable Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? You never responded to this post from Wullie did you? http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,91227.msg3502484.html#msg3502484 I'd be interested to know what these weaknesses are that you keep banging on about; you keep mentioning the term weaknesses without specifying what you think they are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? I'm being attacked on the internets!! He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? Who is accusing you of being an "Obertan/Sola lover LOLZ" So you want to have an intellectual debate but then say you are being "attacked" by statements that nobody made...never mind, I'll pass Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alpal78 Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? I'm being attacked on the internets!! Ouch! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? You never responded to this post from Wullie did you? http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,91227.msg3502484.html#msg3502484 I'd be interested to know what these weaknesses are that you keep banging on about; you keep mentioning the term weaknesses without specifying what you think they are. These would be detailed in the series of posts that were made several pages back before this degenerated into childishness. He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? I'm being attacked on the internets!! Ouch! I was wondering when somebody was going to show up to pull the "he's actually taking an argument seriously, what a loser" tactic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parky Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? You never responded to this post from Wullie did you? http://www.newcastle-online.org/nufcforum/index.php/topic,91227.msg3502484.html#msg3502484 I'd be interested to know what these weaknesses are that you keep banging on about; you keep mentioning the term weaknesses without specifying what you think they are. These would be detailed in the series of posts that were made several pages back before this degenerated into childishness. He's got more "end product" than any midfield player we've had since Laurent Robert, and it's the same tired old arguments that we saw all those years ago about him, boring guff about workrate and giving the ball away. These are the players that you build your team to support, to make sure that if they do lose the ball, you get it back and give it back to them for them to have another go at a perfect pass, or a 30 yard rocket, or an undefendable cross. If he's not working hard enough, and he works harder than my idol Robert ever did btw, it's the manager's job in training over the course of a season to get him to work harder, not bin him if he has a s*** 45 minutes with Shola alone to aim at where the entire team hardly touched the ball anyway, and certainly not bin him for a player with half the workrate and a millionth of the talent. Honestly cannot get my head round the amount of people saying Obertan should play. What has Ben Arfa done this season that's been worthy of mention in barely any gametime, shunted around different formations and positions? Hit the post at Man City (and made a fantastic chance for Ba with a trademark reverse pass) Won the penalty at Man Utd Set up Ba vs WBA Scored the opener at Bolton Scored the goal of the season vs Blackburn Played a staggering pass for Best vs QPR (having completely changed the game when he came on) Ditto for Simpson at Brighton Scored at Fulham but we should drop him for Obertan because he scored a (very well taken) goal by running into empty space when the opposition were in our penalty area. Honestly man. What's tired is the same old tedious straw man of arguing that anyone who'd criticize Ben Arfa in the slightest is somebody who'd like to see us start with Shola and Obertan every game. He's obviously a good player but he had abysmally bad games against Brighton and Blackburn that highlighted his weaknesses. I don't think that's an unreasonable statement to make. Well done, deal with an alleged strawman with a strawman of your own. Whose saying you can't criticize him? What's the point though if it's not in the context of how we should line up against Villa? I guess if you just like to moan, then by all means go ahead If that's a straw man, what exactly is the main point of Wullie's argument then? Because I never said he should be dropped, I never said he wast terrible, I merely criticized his recent performances and that is apparently grounds for ridicule. How is that qualitatively different from "you can't criticize him?" Again, your argument seems to boil down to "if you're criticizing him you must argue for dropping him or else you're just moaning." Where's the straw man then? We're going around in circles. You can criticize HBA (or any other player for that matter), no one is saying you can't. It's just pointless if you're not relating to a) our potential future line up and the b) the alternatives we have. So others (myself) included are well justified to say that you're just moaning. Do you expect everyone to just nod in agreement with you? We are going in circles because you're argument is unreasonable. I'm "moaning" if I say "he played badly and that highlighted his weaknesses"? I don't expect people to nod in agreement but I expect people to be civil and speak intelligently as opposed to just misrepresenting and belittling anyone they don't agree with. "You think Obertan should start? " doesn't count as intelligent discussion. Nice! So others should not belittle your argument and you start your first sentence by already saying that my argument is unreasonable...good example right there! The whole point of the Obertan point is just to put the argument in context i.e. despite HBA's weaknesses he is still the best we have for that particular position because relative to the other options we have, he is still the best we have. I'm sorry you don't find that as intelligent discussion. The best I can say is that we are just arguing from two different angles. You just want to highlight his weaknesses (and perhaps strengths) whereas others and myself are looking at the debate from the context of how the team should line up going forward. Is accusing me of doing whatever I say you're doing your "thing"? There's a clear difference between "I think you're being unreasonable" and "Obertan/Shola lover LOLZ" If you only care about how the team is going to line up then why do you feel the need to attack me for mentioning his weaknesses? It's not like I disagree that he should start ahead of Obertan in the first place? I'm being attacked on the internets!! Ouch! I was wondering when somebody was going to show up to pull the "he's actually taking an argument seriously, what a loser" tactic. What you wanna take seriously is troop movements on the North Korean border. Bam! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
junkhead Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 These would be detailed in the series of posts that were made several pages back before this degenerated into childishness. Checked before I posted, couldn't find anything. Care to point me in the right direction? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tooj Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Fucking tune. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest VaVaVoom Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Was no suprise AP dropped him today but i am suprised he didnt feature off the bench. For me...He can make RM his natural position. He has the pace and trickery for a world class winger and the few times i have seen him cross from open play he has looked like he has a quality ball on him. He can cut inside onto his left and weave his way into the box or have a go from distance or can be alternated with Jonas throughout a game. Pardew needs to have a good hard think about this situation. Obertan and Raylor can do a job but Ben Arfa should be starting week in week out and allowed the time to settle into the position. I also think the backroom staff should be compiling videos of Cristiano Ronaldo and how he played on the wing yet still scored shit loads of goals and created for others too. They are similar talents. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Ben Arfa is not a first choice for Pardew. The results speak for Pardew. Hatem will leave in the summer End of the story. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Will you lot leave as well? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Will you lot leave as well? No, we'll stay of course. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amir_9 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 He's not used to the league yet, I think we'll see the best of him next season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Finally, I think he'll do the Euro, even with the few chances given by Pardew. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
M4 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Still plenty of time for him to shine this season. As others mentioned, hopefully his omission today was mainly because there was neither Cabs nor Tioté, and basically only Ba for him link up with. Once they'll be back, surely we'll see him start again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yorkie Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Have to admit that today i was all "wtf as if he's no starting *grunt, snarl*". But knew full well it was probably the correct decision. I've preached as much as any about being patient with him, but i can't deny that i'm gagging for him to be amazing right away. The Blackburn cup game fucked with my head, cos he was just ridiculously good. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto2005 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I can't see this ending well, to not start is one thing but to be 3rd choice to Obertan is another. If he's sub against Wolves with Taylor out then he's a step closer to leaving in the summer imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bowlingcrofty Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I don't think he's behind Obertan per se - he's a different option for different times. When we need to stretch the game then Obertan is key - his pace is petrifying for knackered full backs. If we're a goal up and need to make sure we don't get stuck too deep, Obertan comes into his own. HBA should be coming on in tight games where we need some creativity from the centre. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderson Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Still got hope. Think we'll revisit the 4-3-3/4-5-1 formation once everyone's available. That said, I do think he's perfectly capable of producing at right wing in a 4-4-2, unfortunately Pardew seems to think otherwise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I think Dave/Crumpy have this situation spot on tbh. That said I have full faith in the manager if he doesn't HBA when the big guns come back, he is by far exceeding any expectations we had at the start of the season, is getting he best out of players long written off so until he gives me reason for concern (genuine reason, not him choosing players/formations I wouldn't etc..) then I will trust his decisions. There is more to football than 'this player is better than this player so should definitely start' imo. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AyeDubbleYoo Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I think HBA will understand why he didn't come on today. I'm sure it was in Pardew's plans to use him, but then the injury to Taylor forced him to bring someone on earlier. When it happened he probably wanted to ensure we remained solid and the game stayed tight at that point. I personally think HBA is our most exciting player and I wish he was starting every game, but Pardew is managing like a pragmatist and not a fan. I just hope that the Ben Arfa story at Newcastle turns out well, which I think it still can do. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Definitely think we would have seen him if it wasn't for the injuries. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirge Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Definitely think we would have seen him if it wasn't for the injuries. I think as it looked like a broken leg for Tayls and seeing him leave the field in that state no way was Pards going to put him on. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crumpy Gunt Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I can't see this ending well, to not start is one thing but to be 3rd choice to Obertan is another. If he's sub against Wolves with Taylor out then he's a step closer to leaving in the summer imo. HBA was never going to see much game time today. He's not had a good run of late - maybe not all his own fault and likely due to the loss of Tiote and Cabaye. He'll be lucky to get a game v Spurs aswell. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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