Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Football is a funny business in that you do see managers publically commenting on their players' performances. The Ben Arfa debate is becoming dull though. Yes he's got talent but it's shown only in glimpses. I hope long term we'll see him bedded into the side but it will always be more about the team winning than pandering to any particular player, no matter who they are. Spot on. It's sad that a wonderful season is going to be slightly overshadowed by this debate. Every time he isn't picked there is an over reaction. I really, really like the lad, he is an immense talent but as you say it's getting very dull now. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 That's a fair point. How many times this season have we sored more than 2 goals in a league game? Stoke, Man Utd and Blackburn (h)? Still the 6th highest scorers in the league Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Obertan gives us width, like, Ben Arfa won't stay out wide all game. However our chance creation is f***ing horrible this season imo, we create maybe 2-3 clear cut chances a game but we've gotten away with it due to Ba having one of (if not the) best convertion rates in the league. It's been said before but we've been pretty 'lucky' with a lot of points this season due to some fairly heroic last ditch defending and Tim Krul in goal, and I very much doubt we'd lose that if we play Ben Arfa ahead of Obertan, I do however think we'd score a fair few more. Absolutely this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hughesy Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Football is a funny business in that you do see managers publically commenting on their players' performances. The Ben Arfa debate is becoming dull though. Yes he's got talent but it's shown only in glimpses. I hope long term we'll see him bedded into the side but it will always be more about the team winning than pandering to any particular player, no matter who they are. Spot on. It's sad that a wonderful season is going to be slightly overshadowed by this debate. Every time he isn't picked there is an over reaction. I really, really like the lad, he is an immense talent but as you say it's getting very dull now. Can't agree more. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
relámpago blanco Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 thing is if we finish top 4 which is highly unlikely, we'll need a plyer like him next season to push on, his talent is undoubted, he just doesn't fit into pardews 4-4-2. He can fit into 4-4-2 on the right, but not in pardews mind at present. It pains me to say it but if he was at arsenal there would be many tv screens in london covered in spunk. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jagten Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Newcastl-Hatem-Ben-Arfa-warned-about-unacceptable-work-rate-again-by-Alan-Pardew-article862697.html Pardew, one you have evident double standards. Secondly, i want to see hatem attacking men in the final third, not tracking back to hold simpsons hand. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Newcastl-Hatem-Ben-Arfa-warned-about-unacceptable-work-rate-again-by-Alan-Pardew-article862697.html Pardew, one you have evident double standards. Secondly, i want to see hatem attacking men in the final third, not tracking back to hold simpsons hand. nothing in the quotes about workrate. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest BooBoo Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 And lo the circle continues... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cajun Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 But, why I, for fuck sake, fucking Pardew!!!!11 :tickedoff: :tickedoff: Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlito Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Obertan must be laughing his tits off. Really annoying how he's given extended runs in the team for offering way less than Ben Arfa does. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tmonkey Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Ben Arfa left wing, Jonas right wing. We won't see that this season because.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alberto2005 Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think both are making mistakes here. 1.There is no possibility Obertan/Taylor are more effective. They may track back more but I think we can afford 1 player who doesn't work as hard baring in mind how good he is. 2.HBA knows the reason he isn't playing, IF he was that desperate to play he would be trying to match the work rate of Jonas and not give Pardew a reason to leave him out. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest hatem garrincha Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 I think both are making mistakes here. 1.There is no possibility Obertan/Taylor are more effective. They may track back more but I think we can afford 1 player who doesn't work as hard baring in mind how good he is. 2.HBA knows the reason he isn't playing, IF he was that desperate to play he would be trying to match the work rate of Jonas and not give Pardew a reason to leave him out. I agree both are making mistakes. Agree HBA would not give Pardew a reason to leave him out, but not by matching the work rate of Jonas (we all know he can't do that, he's too attracted to the game and the attack). He just has to be decisive in a constant basis. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
madras Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 i don't even so much think it's workrate as in getting back as much as end product and the team has hardly been set up to help ben arfa......now it could be though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mole_Toonfan Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 http://www.mirrorfootball.co.uk/news/Newcastl-Hatem-Ben-Arfa-warned-about-unacceptable-work-rate-again-by-Alan-Pardew-article862697.html Pardew, one you have evident double standards. Secondly, i want to see hatem attacking men in the final third, not tracking back to hold simpsons hand. nothing in the quotes about workrate. Yep definite headline spin there from the Mirror, good job for his sake that he doesnt post here. Headline Spin is'nt welcomed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted February 7, 2012 Share Posted February 7, 2012 Again, I go back to you preferring the typically English striker Ashton, over the flair and skill of Torres. Hypocritical to say the least if you're using a similar argument to criticise Pardew. You're so sad. At no point did I ever say I'd perfer Ashton over Torres, all I ever said was the of the two, the Englishman was the better all-rounder and lets remember at that very time, Torres was a very raw hit and miss kind of striker who the likes of Barca et al looked at and thought... nah. He did remarkably well at Liverpool and showed just how good he was as a goalscorer, but as a footballer, we are seeing perhaps the real Torres at Chelsea. Not that my opinion on that means anything in regards to this. Unless you're saying Ryan Taylor or Obertan are to Ben Arfa, what my Ashton was to your Torress? I.e. inferior?! By the way, Ashton was nothing like your typical English striker, he had brains, great technique and good footwork. He was more Teddy Sheringham than say Andy Carroll. If not for injuries, he could have been a huge player, especially for England. I'd have loved us to have signed him from Crewe, Sir Bobby even wanted him, but there were concerns about a back problem or something. Such a tragedy he had to retire early. Torres was a much better player even in his Atlético Madrid days, he single handly create and score goals for them to help them along. Believe it or not torres needs fire in his game, he needs the fans behind him. It will do wonders for his performance when the fans love him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Dontooner Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 On the debate of HBA, sell him. Get a Solano type of crosser in this team. If the current manager doesnt like his style or cant adapt to his play, let the player go, end of. We need another James Milner which i rated highly before he left us, good work rate, create chances and could crossed fairly well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 May be i am wrong but could that relates to his attitude at training rather than at match? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The best reason I can think of is a mixture of us having a weakened central midfield, him coming back from one long term/one short terms injury, no pre-season and that although hoofing the ball/Shola being offside/Obertan running into a dead end loses us the ball HBA unfortunately tends to lose the ball at the most dangerous times and dangerous areas of the pitch leaving us massively exposed (more so than those options stated) even if he is infinitely more talented. Pardew has found a system that wins games and HBA could be a risk to that as he is more of a free player. Do you think it's just for the shits and giggles then? I don't think he does it for shits and giggles, I don't think he can handle flair players and I've said that before. As for not having a pre-season, that was fair enough earlier in the season, it isn't any longer. And him losing the ball in dangerous areas or dangerous times, has he lost the ball which resulted in us letting a goal in? He may have done, I can't remember any. I can remember Danny Simpson failing to block a ball recently which ended up with the ball in the back of our net, I can remember Ryan Taylor doing the same earlier this year. I can remember Obertan trying to clear a ball on the edge of our box against Villa and him kicking away from our goal but the ball headed towards our goal because he somehow kicked it behind him. I could probably come up with a few more but the point is, others do it so why does it only matter if it's Ben Arfa? As for Pardew finding a system which wins games, Ben Arfa has been a part of a system what wins games. He was part of the system which went away and came back with a point from Man U, we wouldn't have got that point without him. He was a part of the system which got us to the 4th round of the FA Cup when he scored a wonder goal and was promptly dropped for the next game. He was part of the system which got us 3 points against Bolton having been on the pitch for less than 10 minutes, it was 0-0 when he came on. He was part of the system which got us 3 points away to Blackburn because it was 1-0 when he went off and it ended 2-0. So far he’s scored 3 goals and 2 of them have made a difference to the result, Obertan who gets no stick at all has one goal which made little or no difference to the result as the game was effectively over. Only Demba Ba and Leon Best have scored more goals for us than Ben Arfa, a few have scored the same but those who have the same number of goals have a lot more game time than he has had. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mick Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Football is a funny business in that you do see managers publically commenting on their players' performances. We've had two that I can remember who did it on a regular basis, Souness and Pardew. I seem to remember Shearer doing it with Barton after he was sent off and gobshite Kinnear may have done, I can't remember either way with him. The Ben Arfa debate is becoming dull though. Yes he's got talent but it's shown only in glimpses. I hope long term we'll see him bedded into the side but it will always be more about the team winning than pandering to any particular player, no matter who they are. Who is suggesting that we should be pandering to anybody? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
toontownman Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 What is bemusing for me is how Pardew basically was going to change the system to suit Ben Arfa playing through the middle behind the striker. He bigged BenArfa up and said thats where he would be at his most lethal. Now due to changes in circumstance he is complaining about Ben Arfa not working hard enough in a different position than where he had wanted to deploy him. Granted HBA should be gusting a gut to adapt to however we end up playing but the current set certainly wasn't the original plan. I think the change is mainly because we didnt get Cisse/Maiga in the summer and Ba has been a surprise hit to the point that he is undroppable now and we are all but confined to 4-4-2 leaving Ben Arfa in no mans land. Obviously this shouldn't be a huge problem as he has played and started on the wing but Pardew has dropped the ball a little on pushing him hard and now making him into a bit of a patsy. We have another Robert argument a-brewing. Lets nip it in the bud - If he is playing on the wing he needs to be working hard tracking back and disciplined defending as well as attacking. This is something he would certainly have had to think a little less about when Pardew was pushing him as a second striker. I think he will come good. I just don't know that the wing is the place for him.. in a 4-4-2 its really the only option. Given Gutierrez performances pushed inside I wouldnt be adversed to switching 4-3-3 but I dont think that really suits Ba even if he has played there and it doesnt avoid the defensive frailties of ben arfa and his need to change to adapt to the premier league style. Cisse Ba Ben Arfa Gutierrez Tiote Cabaye Guthrie on current form would also be a decent option in midfield. Despite the current trend, ok its long standing to bash Jonas I think his work rate and usual possession holding abilities make him a different option to Tiote and Cabaye who compliment each other. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
magpie418 Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 @toontownman - good post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
eliassenfredrik Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Mick and toontownman That 4-3-2-1/4-5-1 formation could work very well, either with Jonas or Guthrie in the third midfielder role. Would be absolutely phenomenal to watch. It will never happen as long as Pardew's in charge though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr Venkman Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 We'll see the 4-2-3-1 again this season, Pardew will want to try it with our better players. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 He is out of the team because he kept losing the ball in areas most weak to counter attack and our defence struggles against pace through the centre. Pardew said pre Villa he was going to have to deal with the counter attacks. That was his solution. Ben Arfa has nowhere near the greatest ability at the club. He is behind Coloccini, Krul and Ba, while numerous other players are playing better and i would rather build the team around them than him. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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