DJ_NUFC Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 You pissed Wullie off, bro. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Looking forward to the Oldtype takedown article. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 We probably would have finished 3rd and made the Champions League a couple of years ago if Pardew wasn't being an arsehole and refusing to play Ben Arfa for 1/3 of a season when he was blatantly fit and we were in desperate need for something up top. We spent less than £10m that season. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Football's all about false hope and heartbreak. That's infinitely preferable to this. This. IMO I think there's a larger structural issue here in that all but a select few teams have become unable to compete Presumably this includes Wigan, Hull, Swansea, Bradford and sunderland given that they've all contested (or are about to contest, for you pedants) a major cup final within the last two seasons. Under the modern regime, 99% of the teams in the football league have a punter's chance at making a cup finals once every century or so while 1% dominate 100% of the league title and the vast majority of cups. That's not competition. "The vast majority of cups" There's two, and Wigan Athletic and Swansea City were the holders of those going into this season. The season before, Cardiff City competed in a final. The year before that, Birmingham City and Stoke City. The year before, Aston Villa and Portsmouth. The facts are that more clubs throughout the league structure than ever before are competing for the two major cups, clubs who have never previously won anything in their entire history (like Swansea, Wigan and possibly Hull) are winning things and that this year, a team that finished 7th the previous season came in the top 2. The last time that happened was in 1992-93. To watch what Liverpool have done and yet try to claim that the whole thing, including cups, is a closed shop is absolutely ridiculous. Going by your numbers, no football club as a whole can win the title, since there are only 92 clubs in the Football League and only 1% can win the league or the "vast majority of cups." This ridiculous hyperbole adds nothing to the discussion. It's simply defeatist nonsense, the type of which Mike Ashley craves hearing from Newcastle supporters. Wullie, even if you assume that the cups are reasonably competitive I don't see how you could possibly argue that the league is not a closed shop. Do you honestly think that any amount of good signings and good managerial appointments will allow NUFC to challenge for the league title under the current system, barring a Man City-esque investment? The closed-shop monopoly has been broken exactly once in the Premiership era by Blackburn Rovers, and we were the last non-entitlement club to finish 2nd in 95-96. I also think the competitiveness of the cup is a mirage. First, it only exists because the teams that matter have more important things to do and don't care. Second, even then they still win 80% of the titles. The minute anything substantial is offered as a prize for the domestic cups (CL qualification, for example) they would become a closed shop as well. I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? The rest of us are forced to pine for a cup that may or may not come within our lifetimes where Man United and Man City will probably end up with so many cups that they don't even bother to put them in their trophy cabinet. Again, is this competition? I'm sorry that I simply can't agree that there's not a problem here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Do you honestly think that any amount of good signings and good managerial appointments will allow NUFC to challenge for the league title under the current system Why wouldn't it? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 How were Arsenal an "entitlement club"? What does that even mean? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Do you honestly think that any amount of good signings and good managerial appointments will allow NUFC to challenge for the league title under the current system Why wouldn't it? If you believe it's possible, fair play, but I just don't see it. Even with guaranteed investment of 30 million pounds a year and one of Europe's top managers (assuming we could keep him for longer than a season), it would still require the equivalent of flipping a coin fifty times and having it all come out heads. Even then, get one decision wrong and we'd be right back down where we are now. Look at a club like Chelsea as a contrast. A litany of terrible decisions and bad signings and one appointment has them instantly in title contention. The disparity in the allowable margin of error should feel shocking. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 edit: oldtype Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If we were to be taken over by someone who doesn't happen to be an absolute tosser, and who knows enough about football to recruit a talented manager and backs him, then I see no reason why we couldn't challenge for the league. Too many world class managers bust onto the scene to take clubs far above their station for me to believe it's impossible to happen to us. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Memphis Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Only 23 teams have ever won a top-flight League title. Ever. Only 8 other teams have finished as runners-up but not won a title. So that's 31 in total over 115 years. And of the 115 different top-flight titles that have been up for grabs in history, 5 clubs have won 65 of them. Meaning the other 18 teams have won only 50 titles between them. It was ever thus. In the first 22 seasons of top-flight football, 7 different teams won. In the 22 years of the Premier League, 5 different teams have. Winning the league is by design a virtually impossible task for all but the best squads, of which there are destined to be a very select few. The way those few have come to be is different now but their existence is not. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Do you honestly think that any amount of good signings and good managerial appointments will allow NUFC to challenge for the league title under the current system Why wouldn't it? If you believe it's possible, fair play, but I just don't see it. Even with guaranteed investment of 30 million pounds a year and one of Europe's top managers (assuming we could keep him for longer than a season), it would still require the equivalent of flipping a coin fifty times and having it all come out heads. Even then, get one decision wrong and we'd be right back down where we are now. Look at a club like Chelsea as a contrast. A litany of terrible decisions and bad signings and one appointment has them instantly in title contention. The disparity in the allowable margin of error should feel shocking. What the flying fuck? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Football's all about false hope and heartbreak. That's infinitely preferable to this. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. The one thing that hundreds of thousands of NE residents crave but can't and may never have. I'd say it's a pretty big thing. Almost what sport & local pride/achievement is all about to a lot of people. or £1m, should've just got a second sponsor on their shorts saved themselves the hassle and accepted their status as being nowt. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads and/or half-ass their way through it. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Didn't look that way to me in the Carling Cup final. City's players were absolutely ecstatic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? It's pretty much the primary reason why I would never want us to sell out just to win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? No. Not much to talk about then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Didn't look that way to me in the Carling Cup final. City's players were absolutely ecstatic. Of course they were. Players are always happy to win things. You honestly think the decision-makers at City make it a priority to win the domestic cups? If they end up winning the damn thing, wonderful. But they'd be just as content dropping out in the 3rd round for the next 20 years if it meant consistent European and league success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I must be missing something; why would that bother anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Tbh I think man city fans are enjoying winning trophies. It's still pretty novel to them I should think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The Man City pre-oil would've eaten the fucking League cup like it was Jesus embodied if they'd won. Their priorities changed just recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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