Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Didn't look that way to me in the Carling Cup final. City's players were absolutely ecstatic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hanshithispantz Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? It's pretty much the primary reason why I would never want us to sell out just to win. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disco Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? No. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? No. Not much to talk about then Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Didn't look that way to me in the Carling Cup final. City's players were absolutely ecstatic. Of course they were. Players are always happy to win things. You honestly think the decision-makers at City make it a priority to win the domestic cups? If they end up winning the damn thing, wonderful. But they'd be just as content dropping out in the 3rd round for the next 20 years if it meant consistent European and league success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I must be missing something; why would that bother anyone? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Crooks Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Tbh I think man city fans are enjoying winning trophies. It's still pretty novel to them I should think. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 The Man City pre-oil would've eaten the fucking League cup like it was Jesus embodied if they'd won. Their priorities changed just recently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest antz1uk Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 what's going on in here? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nobody Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads and/or half-ass their way through it. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Still don't understand what your point is. Who cares what Chelsea or City do in the cups if we go on to win it? I know I'd celebrate like a fucking mad man if we ever a cup. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJ_NUFC Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 what's going on in here? There's beef afoot. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deuce Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Agree with Wullie here. You could have said the same thing 10, 20, 30, 40 or 50 years ago about there being a lack of competition, but the names of the club dominating proceedings wouldn't necessarily be the same (with a few noticeable exceptions) People forget that for the previous 40 years, first Liverpool then Man United had every major trophy on a string. I've never known the domestic cups be as winnable/contestable as they have been over the last five years. That's because the top clubs don't give a shit about them anymore. There's no incentive to. Even if that were true, which it's not, your point is what exactly? Of course it is. What incentives are there for the likes of City or Chelsea to win the cups, outside of bragging rights? They're going to qualify for the CL anyway, the payout for winning the cups is a pittance, and they risk injury/fatigue to their top performers by playing them in extra matches. And as a result, they play weakened squads and/or half-ass their way through it. Which makes the cups more contestable for everyone else. Still don't understand what your point is. Who cares what Chelsea or City do in the cups if we go on to win it? I know I'd celebrate like a fucking mad man if we ever a cup. The initial comment, by Wullie, was that the cups are more competitive now than they have been in the past. To which I responded, "The cups are more competitive now because the top clubs aren't truly contesting them." That's it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm happy for the likes of Swansea and Wigan, but they were outliers and not the norm. And in the end, what was winning those cups worth to them when they remain second-class citizens of English football? A moment of feeling pure ecstasy for everyone who has any connection to the club followed by a lifetime of cherishing that memory and moment that they wouldn't swap for the world. I'd say it's a pretty big thing tbh. But aye, they only got £1m or whatever so why bother. It doesn't bother you that winning the league cup would barely register for most Man City fans while it would be one of the defining moments of our lifetime for most of us? Hansen on MOTD yesterday evening mentioned how Liverpool fans politely clapped when they last won the title (whereas in contrast there would have been huge celebrations had they won it yesterday), such was the norm for them at the time. Winning the title was "par", anything else would have represented failure. This was more than 20 years ago. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If you're just not disturbed by the fact that essentially all our hopes and dreams are pinned on a small chance of winning a secondary honor that the top clubs don't even care about, that's fair I suppose. Obviously there's disparity in every sports league, even a heavily regulated one. I just don't think the level of disparity in England and most European leagues is acceptable/sustainable, that's all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If you're just not disturbed by the fact that essentially all our hopes and dreams are pinned on a small chance of winning a secondary honor that the top clubs don't even care about, that's fair I suppose. Obviously there's disparity in every sports league, even a heavily regulated one. I just don't think the level of disparity in England and most European leagues is acceptable/sustainable, that's all. It's not sustainable yet it's been going for over a hundred years (and growing exponentially in popularity for the last 20 years) in exactly the same way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unbelievable Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If you're just not disturbed by the fact that essentially all our hopes and dreams are pinned on a small chance of winning a secondary honor that the top clubs don't even care about, that's fair I suppose. Obviously there's disparity in every sports league, even a heavily regulated one. I just don't think the level of disparity in England and most European leagues is acceptable/sustainable, that's all. Wait, you were serious about that top class manager + guaranteed 30 mill investment would still only represent a 50 straight head coin flips chance? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If you're just not disturbed by the fact that essentially all our hopes and dreams are pinned on a small chance of winning a secondary honor that the top clubs don't even care about, that's fair I suppose. Obviously there's disparity in every sports league, even a heavily regulated one. I just don't think the level of disparity in England and most European leagues is acceptable/sustainable, that's all. It's not sustainable yet it's been going for over a hundred years (and growing exponentially in popularity for the last 20 years) in exactly the same way. You know as well as I do that it hasn't been going on the exact same way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 I'm still after hearing how Arsenal only won the title because they were an "entitlement club", when I'd thought it was because they scoured the globe for the best manager they could find and came back from Japan with Arsene Wenger. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If you're just not disturbed by the fact that essentially all our hopes and dreams are pinned on a small chance of winning a secondary honor that the top clubs don't even care about, that's fair I suppose. Obviously there's disparity in every sports league, even a heavily regulated one. I just don't think the level of disparity in England and most European leagues is acceptable/sustainable, that's all. Wait, you were serious about that top class manager + guaranteed 30 mill investment would still only represent a 50 straight head coin flips chance? Mildly hyperbolic, but the chance would still be extremely slim. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ikri Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Do you honestly think that any amount of good signings and good managerial appointments will allow NUFC to challenge for the league title under the current system Why wouldn't it? If you believe it's possible, fair play, but I just don't see it. Even with guaranteed investment of 30 million pounds a year and one of Europe's top managers (assuming we could keep him for longer than a season), it would still require the equivalent of flipping a coin fifty times and having it all come out heads. Even then, get one decision wrong and we'd be right back down where we are now. Look at a club like Chelsea as a contrast. A litany of terrible decisions and bad signings and one appointment has them instantly in title contention. The disparity in the allowable margin of error should feel shocking. West Ham, 2 points Hull City, 3 points Sunderland, 3 points Swansea, 1 point West Brom, 3 points Norwich, 2 points Sunderland, 3 points Fulham, 3 points Stoke, 3 points Swansea, 3 points 10 games in which we pissed away 26 points. 10 games that we should have either won or at least picked up a point where Pardew mismanaged the team and we dropped points. 9 games against teams who finished below us in the league. 26 points would have seen us in 5th and challenging for the Champion's League again. We don't need massive spending, Souness proved you can spend a fortune and still end up with a shite team. We need intelligent investment and a decent manager and we could be challenging for Europe again. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 If you're just not disturbed by the fact that essentially all our hopes and dreams are pinned on a small chance of winning a secondary honor that the top clubs don't even care about, that's fair I suppose. Obviously there's disparity in every sports league, even a heavily regulated one. I just don't think the level of disparity in England and most European leagues is acceptable/sustainable, that's all. It's not sustainable yet it's been going for over a hundred years (and growing exponentially in popularity for the last 20 years) in exactly the same way. You know as well as I do that it hasn't been going on the exact same way. I read Memphis' post, so I know that it has (although I knew the gist of that anyway). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest chopey Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Any leaks from the fans forum yet ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Any leaks from the fans forum yet ? I imagine the club have just read out oldtype's last 15 posts as justification for not bothering our arse at anything, ever. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtype Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Any leaks from the fans forum yet ? I imagine the club have just read out oldtype's last 15 posts as justification for not bothering our arse at anything, ever. Meh, this was a waste of time from the beginning given that you were hellbent on straw-manning me into some sort of ridiculous Ashley apologist as opposed to considering what I'm actually saying. I stand by my opinion, and I'll just leave it at that. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wullie Posted May 12, 2014 Share Posted May 12, 2014 Any leaks from the fans forum yet ? I imagine the club have just read out oldtype's last 15 posts as justification for not bothering our arse at anything, ever. Meh, this was a waste of time from the beginning given that you were hellbent on straw-manning me into some sort of ridiculous Ashley apologist as opposed to considering what I'm actually saying. I stand by my opinion, and I'll just leave it at that. That was a joke mate, I don't think they actually did that. Feel free to carry on with your baseless tirade against English football. If, if in the extraordinarily unlikely scenario that Newcastle do win a trophy, I'll be sure to be at Wembley with my arms folded in a steaming huff because it's only a secondary honour that the famous Man City don't care about. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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