England

[The Prophet]

What irritates me about the Southgate debate is like anything else these days, there's no nuance to it at all. You can think Southgate is a limited tactician, whilst acknowledging he's done an absolutely superb job to reach a final and a semi final, whilst uniting team and fanbase for the first time in decades.

[Pilko]

Supposedly 2004-2010 was "golden generation" and yet we shit out and looked absolutely chod at every single tournament (and didn't even qualify in '08). Southgate does have certain limitations but the way he's overhauled the national team setup and got us to a point where we're genuinely competing for trophies is deserving of massive credit IMO. I think it's fair enough to debate that he's maybe negative and I really hate the obsession with Mount that he has, but to say you don't rate him at all despite the results we've had versus years of chronic underachievement (with arguably way better players) is just plain daft.

 

[Ronaldo]

6 minutes ago, Pilko said:

Supposedly 2004-2010 was "golden generation" and yet we shit out and looked absolutely chod at every single tournament (and didn't even qualify in '08). Southgate does have certain limitations but the way he's overhauled the national team setup and got us to a point where we're genuinely competing for trophies is deserving of massive credit IMO. I think it's fair enough to debate that he's maybe negative and I really hate the obsession with Mount that he has, but to say you don't rate him at all despite the results we've had versus years of chronic underachievement (with arguably way better players) is just plain daft.

 

We were good in 2006 to be fair. Just really lacking a striker. 

[STM]

We are sleep walking into a disaster in Qatar because of Gareths "never let me down", policy. Given the club form of Shaw, Maguire, Pickford at times, you can't expect them to continue to ride their luck in tournaments. 

 

Also, I get Mount is good but I don't understand what he offers above others. Surely given the fact you have 3 Man City attacking players, who are tuned into one another, you simply have to play them alongside Saka?

 

Front six of:

 

                              Henderson

         Bellingham

                                            Foden      

   Saka                                  Sterling/Grealish

                            Kane

 

[Joey Linton]

21 minutes ago, STM said:

We are sleep walking into a disaster in Qatar because of Gareths "never let me down", policy. Given the club form of Shaw, Maguire, Pickford at times, you can't expect them to continue to ride their luck in tournaments. 

 

Also, I get Mount is good but I don't understand what he offers above others. Surely given the fact you have 3 Man City attacking players, who are tuned into one another, you simply have to play them alongside Saka?

 

Front six of:

 

                              Henderson

         Bellingham

                                            Foden      

   Saka                                  Sterling/Grealish

                            Kane

Plays Mount ineffectually and totally stifles everything Rice is good at playing him in a strict holding two when he has everyone available. 

 

I think Henderson will be back up come the summer (or winter as it is) too. 

[STM]

1 minute ago, Joey Linton said:

Plays Mount ineffectually and totally stifles everything Rice is good at playing him in a strict holding two when he has everyone available. 

 

I think Henderson will be back up come the summer (or winter as it is) too. 

Forgot about Rice.

[AJ9]

Are we officially starting the cycle of Southgate is shit/boring/clueless now then? 

 

Can we not just save the gnashing of teeth and frustration and accept that he’s not an amazing manager, but he’s the best one we’ve had for a while. He may not win us a World Cup, but we have no right to do that, and newsflash, there are other pretty good teams out there too. 

[St. Maximin]

5 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

Are we officially starting the cycle of Southgate is shit/boring/clueless now then? 

 

Can we not just save the gnashing of teeth and frustration and accept that he’s not an amazing manager, but he’s the best one we’ve had for a while. He may not win us a World Cup, but we have no right to do that, and newsflash, there are other pretty good teams out there too. 

I think you’ve summed him up well there. That doesn’t mean people criticising him think he’s ‘shit/boring/clueless’. They might just think he’s similar to how you’ve described him. 
 

In general I find when managers get criticism people react too much like their critics think the manager is terrible and wants him sacked, when really they are often commenting on their limitations as you might with a player you still like. 
 

I’ve said before I like Southgate and by no means want him sacked soon, but I do question some of his moves. As above the with Mount I always find a funny one - great player without doubt, but when we are blessed with attacking talent not sure what he was offering us on left-wing in the Euros final. 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by St. Maximin

[AJ9]

2 minutes ago, St. Maximin said:

I think you’ve summed him up well there. That doesn’t mean people criticising him think he’s ‘shit/boring/clueless’. They might just think he’s similar to how you’ve described him. 
 

In general I find when managers get criticism people react too much like their critics think the manager is terrible and wants him sacked, when really they are often commenting on their limitations as you might with a player you still like. 
 

I’ve said before I like Southgate and by no means want him sacked soon, but I do question some of his moves. As above the with Mount I always find a funny one - great player without doubt, but when we are blessed with attacking talent not sure what he was offering us on left-wing in the Euros final. 

 

 

 

Fair points. I’m just a bit tired of the debate around him, which seem to be driven a bit by our country’s need to criticise. Seems like an endless stream of “why isn’t x player playing” or “why are we playing three at the back” every time we get to a tournament. He’s gone closer than anyone else in most people’s lifetime, and is a genuinely decent guy too.

[Wullie]

This "the greatest squad England have ever had" nonsense really needs knocking on the head like.

 

The only basis for the claim is in the results that Southgate himself has got out of them, it's certainly not in the personnel or what they have done in their career.

[AJ9]

Just now, Wullie said:

This "the greatest squad England have ever had" nonsense really needs knocking on the head like.

 

The only basis for the claim is in the results that Southgate himself has got out of them, it's certainly not in the personnel or what they have done in their career.

Exactly. They’ve done well because he’s done lots with them as a collective, as opposed to the years of relying on a saviour player to bend football to their will which was what England/the press was all about before.

[Joey Linton]

37 minutes ago, AJ9 said:

Are we officially starting the cycle of Southgate is shit/boring/clueless now then? 

 

Can we not just save the gnashing of teeth and frustration and accept that he’s not an amazing manager, but he’s the best one we’ve had for a while. He may not win us a World Cup, but we have no right to do that, and newsflash, there are other pretty good teams out there too. 

No mate, we're discussing our opinions on where things could potentially improve. That's what football forums are for. Discussion. 

[Kid Icarus]

35 minutes ago, Wullie said:

This "the greatest squad England have ever had" nonsense really needs knocking on the head like.

 

The only basis for the claim is in the results that Southgate himself has got out of them, it's certainly not in the personnel or what they have done in their career.

 

It's utterly bizzare. I'd understand it if we'd had the players below 50 years ago, but it was literally the consistent generation before this one. The likes of Michael Carrick, Jermaine Defoe, Ledley King, and Jonathan Woodgate often couldn't get in that squad let alone the team, but the current England players are the best we've had in a lifetime? Laughable.

 

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[Kid Icarus]

Arguably the 2 best Premier League Centre backs of all time, 2 of the league's best central midfielders of all time, England's last wonderkid who despite underachieving is this country's all time leading goalscorer, the best crosser of a ball I've seen in my life, and comfortably the best English left back in my lifetime.

 

Compared with:

Harry Maguire and John Stones

Declan Rice and Kalvin Phillips

Phil Foden (outstanding but nowhere near the hype Rooney had)

TAA (the nearest player England has to Beckham) who only plays when tactics call for it

Luke Shaw

 

 

Southgate's created a team far greater than the sum of its parts, that doesn't suddenly mean the parts are better than in previous teams, it means he's achieved something he should be getting credit for.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[ilikenewcastle]

1 hour ago, STM said:

We are sleep walking into a disaster in Qatar because of Gareths "never let me down", policy. Given the club form of Shaw, Maguire, Pickford at times, you can't expect them to continue to ride their luck in tournaments. 

 

Also, I get Mount is good but I don't understand what he offers above others. Surely given the fact you have 3 Man City attacking players, who are tuned into one another, you simply have to play them alongside Saka?

 

Front six of:

 

                              Henderson

         Bellingham

                                            Foden      

   Saka                                  Sterling/Grealish

                            Kane

 

I don't think there's anything wrong with picking players with a good international record even if their club form is nothing special. In fact, pretty much every other team does it (Giroud and Klose were regulars for the last 2 world champions despite not setting the world on fire for their clubs). Southgate overall has done a good job, but the manner of the defeats to Croatia and Italy will always annoy me and I fear that we'll see something similar this winter. I wonder how different the second half v Germany would have been in the Euros if Kane stuck that chance away before half time.

[Cronky]

7 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

It's utterly bizzare. I'd understand it if we'd had the players below 50 years ago, but it was literally the consistent generation before this one. The likes of Michael Carrick, Jermaine Defoe, Ledley King, and Jonathan Woodgate often couldn't get in that squad let alone the team, but the current England players are the best we've had in a lifetime? Laughable.

 

 

 

 

 

That's an interesting point. There are certainly some good individuals in that side, but it does beg the question of why they didn't function particularly well as a team. 

 

That midfield of Beckham, Lampard and Gerrard never worked well as a unit. Owen Hargreaves wasn't technically good enough, even for that anchor role. Terry didn't play as well for England as he did for Chelsea, Robinson and Neville weren't top class, Joe Cole never really made his mark at international level. We would go into tournaments with high expectations, but end up very disappointed. Not just be the results, but by the performances.

[The College Dropout]

What makes this squad so great is the depth of attacking talent. 
 

Emile Heskey and Darius Vassell went to Euros 2004.  Vassell came off the bench in the first half when Rooney got injured.  While Hargreaves replaced Gerrard, PHILLIP NEVILLE replaces Scholes. Around that time Crouch, Mills and Sinclair play frequently for England.  
 

at Euros 2020 Saka, Sancho, Rashford, Grealish and Henderson come off the bench for England. The step up in depth is crazy. 
 

 

[The Butcher]

9 hours ago, Kid Icarus said:

 

It's utterly bizzare. I'd understand it if we'd had the players below 50 years ago, but it was literally the consistent generation before this one. The likes of Michael Carrick, Jermaine Defoe, Ledley King, and Jonathan Woodgate often couldn't get in that squad let alone the team, but the current England players are the best we've had in a lifetime? Laughable.

 

 

 

 

Too many playmakers and nowhere near enough pace in that side. 

[Kid Icarus]

Heskey was very good for England when he played with Owen.

 

Sven's other choices, especially Vassell, were ridiculed at the time because the likes of Wright-Phillips, Defoe, Ashton, Beattie, Smith, Woodgate, weren't picked or weren't available. Neville was a utility player, but was picked on reputation and Scholes could have easily been replaced with one of Dyer, Butt, or Joe Cole in that match.

 

This idea that after Sven's first choice XI he had no choice but to put poor players in just isn't true at all.

 

Sven was regularly criticised for his squad picks and substitutions precisely because of better players being available to him. He had his favourites and regularly chose the worse player because of who they played for.

 

Even besides all of that, of the back ups he did choose, the likes of 2004 Robinson, Bridge, Carragher, King, Butt, Dyer, and Hargreaves  would all be in with an excellent shout of making this England starting XI, never mind the squad.

[AJ9]

9 hours ago, Joey Linton said:

No mate, we're discussing our opinions on where things could potentially improve. That's what football forums are for. Discussion. 

Or…adding nothing of value to a “debate” that is currently running at the level of a taxi driver and his passenger. Same old tired arguments on repeat.

 

Anyway, I’ll do my bit to make sure this discussion gets back on track and pipe down. 

 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by AJ9

[Kid Icarus]

Phil Neville for England was nearly always poor IIRC and his performance vs Romania sticks in the memory especially. At the same time it's easy to forget that he was actually good for quite a while when he went to Everton.

[RodneyCisse]

1 minute ago, Kid Icarus said:

Phil Neville for England was nearly always poor IIRC and his performance vs Romania sticks in the memory especially. At the same time it's easy to forget that he was actually good for quite a while when he went to Everton.

Ruined my family holiday in Lanzarote as an 11 year old.

[Yorkie]

That fucking penalty giveaway against Romania is still rage inducing. Such an insult after we'd done the hard part of recovering from that opening collapse against Portugal.

 

Think the only other time I was cliche 'kid's crying now' as an England fan was the throw-away against France in Euro 2004.

 

Was starting to lose it in WC06 and don't even think me mum and dad were watching by the time the pens were on. 

 

Then by 08 I'm pretty sure I just thought it was funny cos of all the dislikeable characters in the team and dugout.

 

Everything else between that and Southgate was varying shades of meh; I didn't mind Hodgson but didn't feel much when we went out. 

[Guest neesy111]

We were absolutely shite that euro 2000 tournament tbh.

[buzza]

The major complaints i have with Southgate´s selections are:

Pickford, he has had a pretty poor season so far and seems to have become much more error prone/lost confidence.

Maguire, way out of form and I have never believed the hype about him. The only good attacking trait he had was bringing the ball 15-20 yards straight out of defence, the rest was average, oh... and the size of his swede!

Shaw, was great at the euros but is struggling now.

Sterling, hardly ever plays for city but is a cert for england???

 

As for rice and phillips, I also think there are games where one defensive pivot is enough, he needs to be a bit more positive as we have a lot of attacking talent. perhaps a 4-1-4-1