England

[jackyboy]

Southgate has never been a success at anything. He got the job because he doesn't rock the boat and comes over as squeaky clean. He is more concerned about and puts more effort into other issues like LGBT, racism, equality, free school dinners etc. They are issues not to be ignored by any means but he is a football manager and not a politician. We have the best selection of players that we have  ever had but with him in charge we will win nothing

[Guest HTT II]

3 minutes ago, jackyboy said:

Southgate has never been a success at anything. He got the job because he doesn't rock the boat and comes over as squeaky clean. He is more concerned about and puts more effort into other issues like LGBT, racism, equality, free school dinners etc. They are issues not to be ignored by any means but he is a football manager and not a politician. We have the best selection of players that we have  ever had but with him in charge we will win nothing

Despite all that, while in the role of football manager, two semi-finals at tournaments and a final which we were a spot kick or two away from winning. I agree tactically he isn’t on a par with say Mancini, but on form, stats wise etc. this is the best we’ve ever performed. He’s done a great job, is a great man and I think what he’s achieved can’t be measured by trophies, international football is more of a lottery than domestic football, it’s knock out football in the end and often spot kicks. 

[Dembacha]

33 minutes ago, jackyboy said:

Southgate has never been a success at anything. He got the job because he doesn't rock the boat and comes over as squeaky clean. He is more concerned about and puts more effort into other issues like LGBT, racism, equality, free school dinners etc. They are issues not to be ignored by any means but he is a football manager and not a politician. We have the best selection of players that we have  ever had but with him in charge we will win nothing

I'd argue that making it to World Cup semi final and a European cup final is being pretty successful. He also as a player managed to play for his national team more than once which once again would point to him being successful.

What makes you say he puts more effort into other issues over football?

[RodneyCisse]

3 hours ago, Ben said:

I don't think I've ever been as disinterested in international football as I am just now, I'm a two faced bastard though cos I'll be all in come the world Cup, I've even got a special glass for it.

I think Newcastle being in such disarray for so long when England came around in a tournament we all went all in. A few Toon players in the squad would soon change that in terms of it being a second thought currently.

[SUPERTOON]

3 hours ago, Ben said:

I don't think I've ever been as disinterested in international football as I am just now, I'm a two faced bastard though cos I'll be all in come the world Cup, I've even got a special glass for it.

Mainly because anything before a tournament is utterly pointless. It’s almost impossible for us not to get out of the qualifying groups we get drawn in and international friendlies are also a waste of time mid season.

[wormy]

43 minutes ago, jackyboy said:

Southgate has never been a success at anything. He got the job because he doesn't rock the boat and comes over as squeaky clean. He is more concerned about and puts more effort into other issues like LGBT, racism, equality, free school dinners etc. They are issues not to be ignored by any means but he is a football manager and not a politician. We have the best selection of players that we have  ever had but with him in charge we will win nothing

 

 

Ironically one of the things Southgate's most praised for is the culture shift he's fostered amongst a national team that has often times seemed disinterested and detached from the general public. The pesky caring about the community is probably a big part of that. And as if he can't take an interest in social issues at the same time as being an international football manager .

 

I'm not a great fan of Southgate, he clearly has his tactical limitations and  I wouldn't ever want him in charge at NUFC. But I find it strange how so many people love to imply he's wasted a generation of footballers with World Cup semi and Euros final runs when the country's not had a sniff of anywhere near that for 30 odd years, including a previously-touted 'Golden Generation'.

[Yorkie]

Friendlies and qualifiers are not a waste of time on the scale of previous England regimes. One of the reasons why Southgate is the most successful manager in most of our lifetimes - - ahem, sorry, a politician whose only interested in LGBT crap and other woke stuff (I always forget!) - - is the togetherness, spirit and 'club feel' that he's fostered during his time. That vibe wouldn't be as ingrained without these occasions. The matches themselves are probably less important. 

[Guest HTT II]

By the way I love that Southgate and the team are so social aware on matters that exist and are real, it’s proper engagement and shows a side to the game that is important in this day and age.

[SUPERTOON]

5 minutes ago, Yorkie said:

Friendlies and qualifiers are not a waste of time on the scale of previous England regimes. One of the reasons why Southgate is the most successful manager in most of our lifetimes - - ahem, sorry, a politician whose only interested in LGBT crap and other woke stuff (I always forget!) - - is the togetherness, spirit and 'club feel' that he's fostered during his time. That vibe wouldn't be as ingrained without these occasions. The matches themselves are probably less important. 

But playing teams like San Marino, Andorra etc are pointless, it’s a waste of everyone’s time. 

Obviously that’s more a fifa/uefa issue in terms of allowing them to be in the same qualifying groups. I’ve always thought they should be made to do some sort of pre qualifying.

 

[Yorkie]

I agree that the matches themselves are the least valuable part of the experience but then again I do think that whole 'waste of time' thing is sometimes a bit overstated. There's no way I can't enjoy watching a team I support win 10-0, and it also enables players like Abraham and Smith-Rowe to get off the mark. 

[jackyboy]

The whole point I'm making is that the with the current players at his disposal we should be winning a trophy

 or two rather than be runners  up.  

[leffe186]

36 minutes ago, jackyboy said:

The whole point I'm making is that the with the current players at his disposal we should be winning a trophy

 or two rather than be runners  up.  

And the whole point we’re making is that that’s silly. You get one chance every two years. There are at least half a dozen really really good teams. You get close and then try your best and sometimes that isn’t quite good enough. Sometimes you get a break and win.

 

He has Pickford as arguably his best keeper FFS. Switching Dan Burn for Maguire, much like Lascelles for Maguire, isn’t going to make a difference. We’ve got a couple of great players, a handful of very good ones, and a really good team spirit.

 

I do wish we had a better tactical coach, tbh, and the one big argument is that we could have beaten Italy maybe with different penalty takers. You just can’t say that any team “should” win a World Cup or be European champions.

[Kid Icarus]

It's mad how quickly the England team has gone from being a bunch of post-golden generation players who aren't up to scratch, to suddenly being so good that Southgate should be winning tournaments with them. It's been mad to see it happen and I can only think that it's happened because Southgate's set a rod for his own back by being much more successful than any England manager over the past 20 to 30 years. 

 

Even if you believe that Southgate's not getting the most out of the players he has, the idea that they should win things is still a bit daft. You could say the same about a handful of teams every time a tournament comes around. That's including teams with more talent than England, which is why there are no teams that should win anything. 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[Wullie]

Southgate's one of the biggest examples of "victim of his own success" I can think of. Took an unproven central midfield pair from Leeds and West Ham to a Euro final, lost on penalties and we're meant to believe it was his fault because it's actually the greatest set of players England have ever had in their history.

 

Since we lost on pens, the implication has to be that even if we'd won the European Championships via that method, he still wouldn't have been good enough because it was his fault we were in a shootout. These people are demented.

 

By some distance he's the most successful manager England have ever had other than Alf Ramsey and that's a fact.

[Jaqen]

France are comfortably the best squad at International level on paper. They should be the only ones with expectations of winning things not England. 

 

Can't deny we've had favourable draws under Southgate though, I guess that's where some of the frustration comes from. There's a sense that we blew it giving the relatively 'easy' run ins. At the same time people are quick to only pin the blame on Southgate for the losses and not give him credit for getting us to that point in the first place. We were tactically spot on in quite a few games where his selection was criticized prematch. 

[Rich]

It's only his in-game management that lets him down, IMO, he gets everything else spot-on.

[hakka]

Also, how do you mitigate players just hitting poor penalties in a final? I know the late subs could be challenged, but if 5 hit back of the net we would have won. In fact 4 would have sealed it. Then it's Southgate the hero.

[St. Maximin]

Personally I love the bloke, but I agree with some of the criticism he got from that Euros final. I think a lot of people were just frustrated and there were some knee-jerk reactions after the final, but at the same time as we might with players, it’s very reasonable to criticise anyone when they’re doing things wrong, even if their standards are normally high. Same with Rafa for example also - did terrific here but he made some questionable decisions irrespective of his record, but criticising them shouldn’t mean you want the guy sacked. Not that people are saying that here, but I know some people who react like that. 
 

Still think we should have won with that home advantage, but it’s still anyone’s game on the day. Onwards and upwards. Can’t knock that record and we’ve gone from semis to finalists, so naturally we’ll win the next World Cup anyway. 

[Pilko]

I'm still furious with Rashford over Southgate. The amount of high pressure pens he's rattled into the onion bag in the past for club and country, and he tries to be clever in a fucking final with the stuttery paused run up shite.

[wormy]

27 minutes ago, Pilko said:

I'm still furious with Rashford over Southgate. The amount of high pressure pens he's rattled into the onion bag in the past for club and country, and he tries to be clever in a fucking final with the stuttery paused run up shite.

 

On the wider topic, does anyone know if there's been any kind of study on the stutter run up and whether it actually has a notably different success rate to a normal run up?

 

Feels like there's more chance of the penalty taker psyching themself out than the 'keeper.

[Astroblack]

47 minutes ago, Pilko said:

I'm still furious with Rashford over Southgate. The amount of high pressure pens he's rattled into the onion bag in the past for club and country, and he tries to be clever in a fucking final with the stuttery paused run up shite.

that was the pen that disappointed me most. Even if you told me to pick five players for another shootout, I’d still pick him. I was in disbelief when he missed. 

[hakka]

7 hours ago, Pilko said:

I'm still furious with Rashford over Southgate. The amount of high pressure pens he's rattled into the onion bag in the past for club and country, and he tries to be clever in a fucking final with the stuttery paused run up shite.

 

I am not a fan of them at all. Always feel they end up not enough in to any corner and not powerful enough. If the keeper doesn't dive early and is able to go right way it's often an easy one to save.

[Guest]

19 hours ago, jackyboy said:

The whole point I'm making is that the with the current players at his disposal we should be winning a trophy

 or two rather than be runners  up.  

We are no better or have no more right than France & Italy the last two tournaments.

[WarrenBartonCentrePartin]

I know it's only two friendlies, but Johnstone's withdrawn though illness now. Is this how far down the pecking order we're going?

 

 

[Guest neesy111]

Jesus.