Success at what cost?

[huss9]

Would it be reasonable to suggest that the Saudi’s owning us would accelerate their “modernisation” and progression as a forward thinking society? They’re going to be fully under the spotlight here...probably more than they realise.

 

i made this point in another thread.

it's also something thats been mentioned by relatives that have or still are working in saudi.

they see at a positive thing for themselves as ordinary citizens.

[Tiresias]

I hope so but tbh that feels grasping at straws, owning a football club in teh uk can hardly be considered a major societal pressure towards liberalization. Someone said they felt there were positive moves in Saudi Arabia and that can only be good but really dont think anyone buys a football club to modernize. I hope it brings scrutiny that brings change, however think it's wishful thinking,

[Geordie Ahmed]

This isn't a black and white issue, we are dealing with each persons morals and those are times subjective to a certain extent.

 

I think we can all agree we want Mike Ashley gone and therefore him leaving will be a massive relief and a joyous occasion, it's been so long since we have been a proper club, and by that I simply mean a club trying to be better tomorrow than it is today. We've been a zombie club with brief moments of joy but by and large it's been absolute misery.

 

In terms of the potential new owners, I think it's possible to recognise their issues but still want to support the club. I personally want this takeover to go through and i'll buy a season ticket if they are available, I miss going to the football. The issues with the new owners don't bother me enough to not want to go to the football or support my team. If however they were exactly like Ashley when it came to running the club then I would stop going but my issue with them would be the football and not other things.

 

Having said that if the Israeli government were buying us my stance would change, does that make me selective in my morals? Aye I suppose it does. Does it make me a hypocrite? Again I suppose it does. If we are all honest with ourselves there is an element in hypocrisy in how we perceive things. Certain issues will bother people more than others. That's just reality. It's neither right or wrong, it just is.

 

What does concern me is the section of our fans (admittedly this could just be a minority) that have suddenly become experts in the middle east and are defending everything, we've seen today our fans attacking Hatice Cengiz (fiancee of Khashoggi) on twitter, calling her a "slappa" and telling her to "fuck off". I've seen the Saudis defend and be in denial about what happened to Khashoggi, I expect nothing less from them but that's not something we should be doing. It's disgraceful and I'm comfortable in saying that is wrong. We can be happy our club is a club again without become cheer leaders.

 

When it comes to certain sections of the media (Keys, Delaney etc) then ideally we would ignore them but I understand that's easier said than done so I've no issues when we challenge them but we shouldn't go after Amnesty/Hatice etc, it's embarrassing.

 

I understand overall people will be conflicted, if people feel so strongly about the issues that they will no longer follow the club then we should respect that. If they feel strongly about the issues but still want to follow the club we should respect that. If they aren't bothered by the issues then we should respect that (as long as they don't go attacking people that have legitimate grievances).

 

 

[Disco]

There just several centuries or so behind western humanist evolution. They’ll get there.

 

True but its gonna take awhile

 

And yet both you obvious master race lads want to jump in bed with the Saudis you’re calling genetically inferior. The utter state of it. Mackemtastic.

 

 

[Kanji]

Would it be reasonable to suggest that the Saudi’s owning us would accelerate their “modernisation” and progression as a forward thinking society? They’re going to be fully under the spotlight here...probably more than they realise.

 

i made this point in another thread.

it's also something thats been mentioned by relatives that have or still are working in saudi.

they see at a positive thing for themselves as ordinary citizens.

 

Seriously asking this - you have relatives in Saudi who see this as potentially positive to change in their culture?

[Guest The Little Waster]

There just several centuries or so behind western humanist evolution. They’ll get there.

 

True but its gonna take awhile

 

And yet both you obvious master race lads want to jump in bed with the Saudis you’re calling genetically inferior. The utter state of it. Mackemtastic.

 

Whats master race about the fact they are culturally behind us by a long way ? No one mentioned genetics except you . But aye just casually call other people Nazis . The utter state of you !

[Disco]

There just several centuries or so behind western humanist evolution. They’ll get there.

 

True but its gonna take awhile

 

And yet both you obvious master race lads want to jump in bed with the Saudis you’re calling genetically inferior. The utter state of it. Mackemtastic.

 

Whats master race about the fact they are culturally behind us by a long way ? No one mentioned genetics except you . But aye just casually call other people Nazis . The utter state of you !

 

Hysterical response, evolution is genetic as you agreed with in the post above that you quoted. But yes, the state of me              !

[Guest The Little Waster]

There just several centuries or so behind western humanist evolution. They’ll get there.

 

True but its gonna take awhile

 

And yet both you obvious master race lads want to jump in bed with the Saudis you’re calling genetically inferior. The utter state of it. Mackemtastic.

 

Whats master race about the fact they are culturally behind us by a long way ? No one mentioned genetics except you . But aye just casually call other people Nazis . The utter state of you !

 

Hysterical response, evolution is genetic as you agreed with in the post above that you quoted. But yes, the state of me              !

 

Western humanist evolution refers to culture obviously not genetics . The hysteria lies with you ...

[Disco]

Thanks for batting harder for them like the hypocrite you are.

 

Again, western humanist evolution is not a thing or phraseology that anyone uses. And even if not genetic you’re happy to denounce them as inferior and backward comparing them to a time where most can’t read, don’t know about the existence of gravity and love flat earth etc. 

[Guest The Little Waster]

Thanks for batting harder for them like the hypocrite you are.

 

Again, western humanist evolution is not a thing or phraseology that anyone uses. And even if not genetic you’re happy to denounce them as inferior and backward comparing them to a time where most can’t read, don’t know about the existence of gravity and love flat earth etc.

 

Lol it obviously is a phraseology thats used , nice to see youve now conceded its not genetic . Perhaps you can now apologise to me and the other bloke who posted for literally calling us Nazis . Are you saying that the wahabist Saudis are not culturally backwards ? Really ?? Go on then , dig yourself a bigger hole , be my guest

[RS]

Thanks for batting harder for them like the hypocrite you are.

 

Again, western humanist evolution is not a thing or phraseology that anyone uses. And even if not genetic you’re happy to denounce them as inferior and backward comparing them to a time where most can’t read, don’t know about the existence of gravity and love flat earth etc.

1920?

[Newcastle Fan]

Not many countries get attacked the way Saudi does whenever it tries to take a step forward, they are an easy target for those who want to tell themselves they are morally conscious, if you think our fans are being unreasonable think about the overwhelming majority of Saudi Citizens who are behind their government and the positive changes its making and who waited a really long time to see the country start to open up and change its old mentality, yet they and the country are being attacked from all angels whenever it tries to build international ties with major brands or do anything positive for the country, I'm not denying they are at fault and should accept some of the criticism, but people on here actively attacking anyone with anything positive to say about them make me laugh

[triggs]

When they stop bombing Yemen and go a few years without killing journalists/human rights activists they might get some praise

[Guest neesy111]

These reforms are just for economic purposes to keep the money rolling in for the top brass once oil coffers dry up via expanding the economic base within SA imo.  In no way do I believe these reforms are for moral purposes.

[Rafalove]

These reforms are just for economic purposes to keep the money rolling in for the top brass once oil coffers dry up via expanding the economic base within SA imo.  In no way do I believe these reforms are for moral purposes.

 

You might be right but do we know this for sure? Some in this thread have pointed out that SA, have a young population that want to become a more liberal society. MBS, himself is fairly young so it’s not out of the question to think he might be one of those who want to see a change in society. It’s an interesting question with in this debate as to how much credit we should give them for reforms even though they are still doing abhorrent shit and if even mentioning the improvements could itself be deemed as sportswashing.

[Tiresias]

Love all the people who have suddenly decided that Saudi are a unfairly hated country at the same time as they are potentially giving nufc a lot of money are the ones who are throwing accusations at other fans of 'suddenly developing a conscience' despite most of us have merely stayed consistent on what is right and what is wrong regardless of personal gain.

 

Seen some talk of 'enemies' and accusations of 'liars'

 

Let's be clear, I am a fan of NUFC, I will remain a fan of NUFC, I may even enjoy some of the football again. I just have deep misgivings over the new owners. I think with consistent messaging I see no reason why the sportwashing they are trying will necessarily work (although from all the people suddenly willing to go to the wall to defend public excecutions, torture and bombing civilians may change my mind on this) and will try and enjoy the new era.

 

Nobody has ever, until now it seems, insisted that anyone loves the owners of a club. I certainly don't love ashley. Why is this now a requirement? Why are we required to believe they are victims (which is one of the most laughable lines of reasoning given) and not a rich nation state out to further it's own interests via owning a football club. Why am I required to suddenly change my mind and think they're nice people?

 

I also importantly don't think it's anyone here's fault, and that is the issue. No fans have a say in who owns the club due to lack of oversight fromt he league and regulations in favour of attracting as much money as possible. If fans had a say in who owns the club ashley would have been gone years and years ago. So get this, enjoy football, but don't ever pretend it is moral. Half the league are owned by assholes too (albeit mostly not on the same scale) and football as a hole is a breeding ground for corruption and organised crime (just look at Agents, tell me thats not a racket). I will still enjoy it. But I will not be told that I have to wave a flag to support the owners. We are only singled out because we're the only club being bought right now, there's plenty of criticism of tghe glazers and they are now here near as evil as Saudi arabia ffs. If the system wasn't broken and it was just us being bought somehow by Saudi Arabia i may consider more drastic persona action but this is a symptom of the greed of the league and how football is set up.

 

And lastly, I hate this, I mentioned before that this risks dividing the fanbase. Please don't think that anyone who is conflicted at least over the ownership is any less of a fan. I don't believe anyone who is welcoming with open arms the takeover is an enemy of the club or anything, of course every fan wants this, to finally have some ambition. But no-one has to love the owners, that's not a pre-requisite of being a fan and never was.

 

Edit: And yes I really hope SA does liberalise, even continue to liberalise. Doesn't really change my views that football clubs should not be nation states PR machines.

[Rafalove]

Announced with in the last hour they are going to stop using flogging as a form of punishment

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/25/saudi-arabia-to-end-flogging-as-a-form-of-punishment

[Tiresias]

And then quietly reintroduce it when the PR storm dies down? I'm not going to suddenly think they're a lovely country overnight. I am also sure there are some positive moves happening, some genuine reformers etc and a young population desperate for change. They are still subject to the whims of autocrats who are still in power despite commiting many pretty hideous crimes. But even setting all that aside

 

Nation states, should not directly or indirectly own football clubs. Full Stop. It is wrong, and the problem is not with us it is with the whole league, but that does not stop it being absurd.

[STM]

When they stop bombing Yemen and go a few years without killing journalists/human rights activists they might get some praise

 

I completely agree. I dont think there is any real intent, from their point of view, to change their views on certain issues and this is largely about money.

 

However, the more ties there are between the Saudis and the west (who I know, arent angels), the more intrinsically linked our values become. The more countries cooperate and work with one another, the more each others views are shared. It will take years but eventually we will see a change, regardless if they know about it or not.

[Optimistic Nut]

Announced with in the last hour they are going to stop using flogging as a form of punishment

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/25/saudi-arabia-to-end-flogging-as-a-form-of-punishment

 

Reckon there’s been some haggling with the Premier League to help push it through?

 

‘Will you stop pushing people off rooftops? No, okay...hanging? Right...what’s that, you’ll stop flogging people? Oh go on then, sign here’.

[RS]

Announced with in the last hour they are going to stop using flogging as a form of punishment

 

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/2020/apr/25/saudi-arabia-to-end-flogging-as-a-form-of-punishment

 

See. Already the profile attached with NUFC reaping benefits. The journey has started.

[OpenC]

Yeah, heard that on R4 early this morning and was going to post it but didn't want to start another argument about charm offensives

[Rafalove]

And then quietly reintroduce it when the PR storm dies down? I'm not going to suddenly think they're a lovely country overnight. I am also sure there are some positive moves happening, some genuine reformers etc and a young population desperate for change. They are still subject to the whims of autocrats who are still in power despite commiting many pretty hideous crimes. But even setting all that aside

 

Nation states, should not directly or indirectly own football clubs. Full Stop. It is wrong, and the problem is not with us it is with the whole league, but that does not stop it being absurd.

 

Is that something they do? Reintroduce abhorant laws After bad pr dies down? Don’t disagree with anything you said there. I would much prefer one of those American owners supposedly interested. Didn’t post that link to defend them btw.

 

[Kid Icarus]

The proof will only ever be in the pudding. We already know how comfortable they are with trying to cover their tracks and telling any lie they can.

[Tiresias]

And then quietly reintroduce it when the PR storm dies down? I'm not going to suddenly think they're a lovely country overnight. I am also sure there are some positive moves happening, some genuine reformers etc and a young population desperate for change. They are still subject to the whims of autocrats who are still in power despite commiting many pretty hideous crimes. But even setting all that aside

 

Nation states, should not directly or indirectly own football clubs. Full Stop. It is wrong, and the problem is not with us it is with the whole league, but that does not stop it being absurd.

 

Is that something they do? Reintroduce abhorant laws After bad pr dies down? Don’t disagree with anything you said there. I would much prefer one of those American owners supposedly interested. Didn’t post that link to defend them btw.

 

I don't honestly know if they do that a lot, it's that that information in isolation doesn't indicate they've suddenly become wonderful (and I do know of course you could be in saudi arabia and say this is our country we can do waht we want here, fine, but we don't have to sell our football clubs to you either). The thing is, if Saudi Arabia were happy with how the world saw them, they would just get on with it however they want, instead they are trying to charm teh world with showing how progressive, they are trying to mvoe past oil etc and they have football clubs that do well. This sensitivity extends to if the world goes hand on what you're doing is kinda shit they suddenly reverse the position. I find it hard to trust hasty reversals in response to a PR storm. Is it even going to get reported if it gets restarted in a few months when this all dies down?

 

And anyway, that is all a bit by the by. I think nation states buying football clubs in other countries for PR (or really for anything) is in itself wrong. No country is a saint, us especially, but fans should have a say in who owns their football club at the least, in reality football should not be in such a state of needing vast money injections and clubs should be owned by people whom will actually long term safeguard them, i.e. most likely the fans. Again  where i disagree with some of the national media is that this is not some aberration from the norm, this is the logical end point of the premier league cash grab. It's systemic.