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Success at what cost?


Does it matter where the money comes from?  

438 members have voted

  1. 1. Does it matter where the money comes from?

    • Yes
    • No


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It's interesting that Saudi Arabia are  condemned as a murderous state by Amnesty because they torture and then execute by decapitation, yet no one blinks an eye at the USA encarcerating terrorists in Guantanamo bay and torturing them and the majority of their states execute prisoners by injecting drugs or electrocuting them to death sometimes after they have been on death row for 25 years.  Why doesn't Amnesty condemn the USA of sports washing when they stage sporting events!!

 

The answer to that is simple, they do.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/national-security/

 

:lol: good point. The likes of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have been critical of the USG for as long as they've existed.

 

I wasnt looking but wasnt aware of Amnesty condemning the Wilder Fury fight.

 

The U.S doesn't use sport, that's the difference. They largely represent the west and (unfortunately) the overwhelmingly popular opinion in the west is that they're the good guys, so they don’t need to do it. Imo a much better U.S comparison would be the Chicago School of Economics whitewashing the U.S foreign regime change by pushing laissez faire capitalism in universities around the world, or the U.S missionaries who’ve done the same but with Christianity.

 

The point being, A.I has still condemned the U.S for its atrocities.

 

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My view on it is this. You don't make moves like they are doing without expecting the spot light to shine on the country and those running it. The plan is to open the country up to more tourism and to shed its previous image of a hermit oil state that really only travelled to for Hajj - this can only be a good thing. In my opinion this shows willing to engage with the wider world - am I comfortable with the things they have done? No, not at all. I'm also uncomfortable with the things that China have done in recent years and the premier league seems more than happy to accept Chinese investment.

 

Let the Saudis buy us, let them showcase their wealth and yes, let them use us a vehicle to life their countries profile. If their endgame is to open themselves up the world, with all the scrutiny that that brings, then this is surely a sign that they are looking to move away from their past.

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It's interesting that Saudi Arabia are  condemned as a murderous state by Amnesty because they torture and then execute by decapitation, yet no one blinks an eye at the USA encarcerating terrorists in Guantanamo bay and torturing them and the majority of their states execute prisoners by injecting drugs or electrocuting them to death sometimes after they have been on death row for 25 years.  Why doesn't Amnesty condemn the USA of sports washing when they stage sporting events!!

 

The answer to that is simple, they do.

https://www.amnestyusa.org/issues/national-security/

 

:lol: good point. The likes of Amnesty and Human Rights Watch have been critical of the USG for as long as they've existed.

 

I wasnt looking but wasnt aware of Amnesty condemning the Wilder Fury fight.

 

The U.S doesn't use sport, that's the difference. They largely represent the west and (unfortunately) the overwhelmingly popular opinion in the west is that they're the good guys, so they don’t need to do it. Imo a much better U.S comparison would be the Chicago School of Economics whitewashing the U.S foreign regime change by pushing laissez faire capitalism in universities around the world, or the U.S missionaries who’ve done the same but with Christianity.

 

The point being, A.I has still condemned the U.S for its atrocities.

 

 

The US does use sport, just like they use Hollywood and tv shows to sell their way of life across the globe. China or Saudi Arabia might not agree with western ideologies 100%, but they will still allow their people access to US entertainment products, and that's a good thing. Same goes for Britain, we sell our football to those countries and we make a hell of a lot of money on the back of it. Unless you want to be North Korea, you deal with regimes as best you can and try to trade with them on a fair basis.

 

By all means condemn the Saudis for their atrocities, but for a lot of us, following Newcastle is all about the football, and that is what we'll be judging the new owners on. As long as they keep their politics out of Newcastle, then I'll keep my politics out of it as well.

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My view on it is this. You don't make moves like they are doing without expecting the spot light to shine on the country and those running it. The plan is to open the country up to more tourism and to shed its previous image of a hermit oil state that really only travelled to for Hajj - this can only be a good thing. In my opinion this shows willing to engage with the wider world - am I comfortable with the things they have done? No, not at all. I'm also uncomfortable with the things that China have done in recent years and the premier league seems more than happy to accept Chinese investment.

 

Let the Saudis buy us, let them showcase their wealth and yes, let them use us a vehicle to life their countries profile. If their endgame is to open themselves up the world, with all the scrutiny that that brings, then this is surely a sign that they are looking to move away from their past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52308344

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/saudi-activists-dispute-official-narrative-hwaiti-killing-200417103626920.html

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52326130

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/14/bae-systems-sold-15bn-arms-to-saudis-during-yemen-assault

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With all the injustice in the world and all the murder of innocent civilians in every war going on now (nevermind what's gone on in the past), it's the takeover of a football club that raises the alarms? Fuck off. Seriously. Until every self-righteous SOB takes it up with their MP's and governments to stop human rights abuses the world over, you can save your PC bollocks for something that actually makes a difference.

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Guest Howaythetoon

They can chop a few more heads off it means we win more trophies for all I care, who gives a fuck anyway about people no-one knows or cares about. If you care enough, adopt them and go vegan or some bull shit! Or you could always buy the club with your money and buy players with your own money too. That’s what they will be doing. Rafa talked a good game, but soon fucked off when Mike asked him to chip in to buy players! Bet the same fannies will be glued to BT when we’re winning the Champions League the season after next.

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With all the injustice in the world and all the murder of innocent civilians in every war going on now (nevermind what's gone on in the past), it's the takeover of a football club that raises the alarms? Fuck off. Seriously. Until every self-righteous SOB takes it up with their MP's and governments to stop human rights abuses the world over, you can save your PC bollocks for something that actually makes a difference.

 

So for every grievance in the world I don't like I've got to take it up to my MP before I can morally be accepted.  Righteo.

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My view on it is this. You don't make moves like they are doing without expecting the spot light to shine on the country and those running it. The plan is to open the country up to more tourism and to shed its previous image of a hermit oil state that really only travelled to for Hajj - this can only be a good thing. In my opinion this shows willing to engage with the wider world - am I comfortable with the things they have done? No, not at all. I'm also uncomfortable with the things that China have done in recent years and the premier league seems more than happy to accept Chinese investment.

 

Let the Saudis buy us, let them showcase their wealth and yes, let them use us a vehicle to life their countries profile. If their endgame is to open themselves up the world, with all the scrutiny that that brings, then this is surely a sign that they are looking to move away from their past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52308344

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/saudi-activists-dispute-official-narrative-hwaiti-killing-200417103626920.html

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52326130

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/14/bae-systems-sold-15bn-arms-to-saudis-during-yemen-assault

 

Yup, aware of all of that. Still doesn't detract from my point.

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With all the injustice in the world and all the murder of innocent civilians in every war going on now (nevermind what's gone on in the past), it's the takeover of a football club that raises the alarms? f*** off. Seriously. Until every self-righteous SOB takes it up with their MP's and governments to stop human rights abuses the world over, you can save your PC bollocks for something that actually makes a difference.

 

All this post has done is just show everyone that you've never been in the chat section tbh. There's quite literally a thread on the Saudi's that's been there since 2015 and likewise the U.S thread. Plenty on here put the graft in for political parties, organisations, charities, and in QuakesMag's case has even made documentaries about this sort of stuff. You're just showing your own ignorance by assuming this has only been brought up now tbh.

 

Again though, framing not wanting the football club to be owned by literal murders isn't a PC bollocks like. It's just not.

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My view on it is this. You don't make moves like they are doing without expecting the spot light to shine on the country and those running it. The plan is to open the country up to more tourism and to shed its previous image of a hermit oil state that really only travelled to for Hajj - this can only be a good thing. In my opinion this shows willing to engage with the wider world - am I comfortable with the things they have done? No, not at all. I'm also uncomfortable with the things that China have done in recent years and the premier league seems more than happy to accept Chinese investment.

 

Let the Saudis buy us, let them showcase their wealth and yes, let them use us a vehicle to life their countries profile. If their endgame is to open themselves up the world, with all the scrutiny that that brings, then this is surely a sign that they are looking to move away from their past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52308344

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/saudi-activists-dispute-official-narrative-hwaiti-killing-200417103626920.html

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52326130

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/14/bae-systems-sold-15bn-arms-to-saudis-during-yemen-assault

 

Yup, aware of all of that. Still doesn't detract from my point.

All those are from this month they aren't looking to change man.
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My view on it is this. You don't make moves like they are doing without expecting the spot light to shine on the country and those running it. The plan is to open the country up to more tourism and to shed its previous image of a hermit oil state that really only travelled to for Hajj - this can only be a good thing. In my opinion this shows willing to engage with the wider world - am I comfortable with the things they have done? No, not at all. I'm also uncomfortable with the things that China have done in recent years and the premier league seems more than happy to accept Chinese investment.

 

Let the Saudis buy us, let them showcase their wealth and yes, let them use us a vehicle to life their countries profile. If their endgame is to open themselves up the world, with all the scrutiny that that brings, then this is surely a sign that they are looking to move away from their past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52308344

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/saudi-activists-dispute-official-narrative-hwaiti-killing-200417103626920.html

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52326130

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/14/bae-systems-sold-15bn-arms-to-saudis-during-yemen-assault

 

Yup, aware of all of that. Still doesn't detract from my point.

All those are from this month they aren't looking to change man.

 

Change doesn't come overnight though does it? It's going to be a slow process.

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My view on it is this. You don't make moves like they are doing without expecting the spot light to shine on the country and those running it. The plan is to open the country up to more tourism and to shed its previous image of a hermit oil state that really only travelled to for Hajj - this can only be a good thing. In my opinion this shows willing to engage with the wider world - am I comfortable with the things they have done? No, not at all. I'm also uncomfortable with the things that China have done in recent years and the premier league seems more than happy to accept Chinese investment.

 

Let the Saudis buy us, let them showcase their wealth and yes, let them use us a vehicle to life their countries profile. If their endgame is to open themselves up the world, with all the scrutiny that that brings, then this is surely a sign that they are looking to move away from their past.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52308344

 

 

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/04/saudi-activists-dispute-official-narrative-hwaiti-killing-200417103626920.html

 

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-52326130

 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2020/apr/14/bae-systems-sold-15bn-arms-to-saudis-during-yemen-assault

 

Yup, aware of all of that. Still doesn't detract from my point.

All those are from this month they aren't looking to change man.

 

Change doesn't come overnight though does it? It's going to be a slow process.

No it does not but I'll wait till they've stopped murdering people before I think they are on any path to redemption.

 

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How exactly does sportwashing work exactly? How is it supposed to improve their image? All it’s done so far is draw attention to it to human rights violations.I mean there’s no doubt that’s the reason we’re being bought, but how does it work.

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How exactly does sportwashing work exactly? How is it supposed to improve their image? All it’s done so far is draw attention to it to human rights violations.I mean there’s no doubt that’s the reason we’re being bought, but how does it work.

 

You see all of the comments on here and on Twitter from Newcastle fans excusing or deflecting away from Saudi human rights abuses who wouldn't be doing any excusing or deflecting if they weren't buying the football team they support? That's just one part of how it works. Once they revitalise the region that's another step among people who might not even necessarily follow football - 'say what you will about the Saudis, but they've done wonders for the region' will be something we're likely to hear a lot imo.

 

This is a good article on it - https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester-city-abu-dhabi-uae-sports-washing-199116

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Aye but surely the negative press from the rest of the media means more it receives more negative attention than positive. No denying it’s shameful how some of our fanbase are seemingly willing to overlook human rights abuses.

 

 

Another thing aren’t these lot responsible for funding mosques that end up producing grooming gangs and terrorists?

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For someone who no longer cared about Newcastle a couple of days ago and wished us all the best. You’ve ‘literally’ not stopped posting about this terrible new owner since. I find that unusual. kisearch[/member]

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They are opening up, but it's more a necessity due to how reliant on oil their economy is.  I don't believe for a second some of the actions they've done to open up is because they've had a change of heart.

 

 

Qatar is exactly the same, completely dependent on natural gas for their economy hence all of this spending on world cup etc.

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How exactly does sportwashing work exactly? How is it supposed to improve their image? All it’s done so far is draw attention to it to human rights violations.I mean there’s no doubt that’s the reason we’re being bought, but how does it work.

 

You see all of the comments on here and on Twitter from Newcastle fans excusing or deflecting away from Saudi human rights abuses who wouldn't be doing any excusing or deflecting if they weren't buying the football team they support? That's just one part of how it works. Once they revitalise the region that's another step among people who might not even necessarily follow football - 'say what you will about the Saudis, but they've done wonders for the region' will be something we're likely to hear a lot imo.

 

This is a good article on it - https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester-city-abu-dhabi-uae-sports-washing-199116

 

It works both ways though. By adopting a British football club they also have to buy into how we do sport. When they show Newcastle matches in Saudi Arabia, they'll be seeing women at football games, probably the odd close up of someone swilling lager, etc. All this filters back into their society as well, hopefully it will improve it.

 

The alternative is to be like Isis or North Korea, and just ban everything and refuse interaction with the outside world full stop. Same goes for us, we could also, as a country, just tell Saudi Arabia to do one, but we don't, if anything they are key trade partners.

 

Does that mean their regime is any less reprehensible? No, but it does show that when we as a country aren't prepared to put our foot down because it suits our interests not to, then it's not the job of Newcastle fans to fuck over our own club to satisfy Martin Samuels and other cunts like him.

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For someone who no longer cared about Newcastle a couple of days ago and wished us all the best. You’ve ‘literally’ not stopped posting about this terrible new owner since. I find that unusual. kisearch[/member]

 

To be completely honest I hadn't looked at who the potential owner was at that point I'd probably not be posting at all if it wasn't for who he is and for being bored and in isolation. I stopped caring about the club around last July, but I do care about this piece of shit turning around the public perception of him and the Saudis among the people in our city.

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I think it’s perfectly acceptable to express distaste with the prospect of literally flying for Saudi Arabia, (as seen across social media and likely sponsors) be delighted at seeing the back of someone who is crippling the football club and not be told it’s virtue signalling or moralising. If you feel that way then I’d argue it’s objection to things everyone would usually deplore - sanctioning murders, bombing refugees. insert whichever flag/government (not private investor) you like North Korea, China, Russia, Downing Street but its the Saudi government involved and its them who are under scrutiny. For me and all I can do I’m not going to give up my club provided they aren’t going to take the piss. Lost too many friends. That’s the difference Ashley was all too happy to say fuck you to those following NUFC and outside.

 

I appreciate that investment and good in the city will potentially be huge though it is not without agenda. I suppose on a practical level as an individual I wouldn’t be prepared to buy shirts with Saudi slogans or interests over them and I won’t advocate flying the flag. My presence smiling at the ground will probably all they want but the key is it was divisive both in and away from Newcastle with Ashley and on variable alone he’s worse.

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How exactly does sportwashing work exactly? How is it supposed to improve their image? All it’s done so far is draw attention to it to human rights violations.I mean there’s no doubt that’s the reason we’re being bought, but how does it work.

 

You see all of the comments on here and on Twitter from Newcastle fans excusing or deflecting away from Saudi human rights abuses who wouldn't be doing any excusing or deflecting if they weren't buying the football team they support? That's just one part of how it works. Once they revitalise the region that's another step among people who might not even necessarily follow football - 'say what you will about the Saudis, but they've done wonders for the region' will be something we're likely to hear a lot imo.

 

This is a good article on it - https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester-city-abu-dhabi-uae-sports-washing-199116

 

It works both ways though. By adopting a British football club they also have to buy into how we do sport. When they show Newcastle matches in Saudi Arabia, they'll be seeing women at football games, probably the odd close up of someone swilling lager, etc. All this filters back into their society as well, hopefully it will improve it.

 

The alternative is to be like Isis or North Korea, and just ban everything and refuse interaction with the outside world full stop. Same goes for us, we could also, as a country, just tell Saudi Arabia to do one, but we don't, if anything they are key trade partners.

 

Does that mean their regime is any less reprehensible? No, but it does show that when we as a country aren't prepared to put our foot down because it suits our interests not to, then it's not the job of Newcastle fans to f*** over our own club to satisfy Martin Samuels and other c***s like him.

 

No one has said it's our responsibility of our fans to do anything tbf, just that we shouldn't be manipulated into excusing or glorifying their actions because they might improve the fortunes of our favourite football team.

 

The alternative is to be like Isis or North Korea, and just ban everything and refuse interaction with the outside world full stop. Same goes for us, we could also, as a country, just tell Saudi Arabia to do one, but we don't, if anything they are key trade partners.

 

Having interaction isn't the issue though, it's the nature of the interaction. If the interactions our country is having with the Saudi's was part of a U.N Human Rights improvement initiative or something, fair enough, but our country's interaction has been to sell them weapons so they can bomb children's hospitals in Yemen, and our club and city's interaction will likely be to overlook their human rights record because they've improved our material interests.

 

It works both ways though. By adopting a British football club they also have to buy into how we do sport. When they show Newcastle matches in Saudi Arabia, they'll be seeing women at football games, probably the odd close up of someone swilling lager, etc. All this filters back into their society as well, hopefully it will improve it.

 

I don't think we should underestimate how comfortable power is with having blatant double standards. The man who's buying the club who you say will have to buy in our way of doing sport, currently has a Saudi princess under house arrest for wanting exactly the reforms and improvements you're saying could filter back to their society and improve it.

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How exactly does sportwashing work exactly? How is it supposed to improve their image? All it’s done so far is draw attention to it to human rights violations.I mean there’s no doubt that’s the reason we’re being bought, but how does it work.

 

You see all of the comments on here and on Twitter from Newcastle fans excusing or deflecting away from Saudi human rights abuses who wouldn't be doing any excusing or deflecting if they weren't buying the football team they support? That's just one part of how it works. Once they revitalise the region that's another step among people who might not even necessarily follow football - 'say what you will about the Saudis, but they've done wonders for the region' will be something we're likely to hear a lot imo.

 

This is a good article on it - https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/manchester-city-abu-dhabi-uae-sports-washing-199116

 

It works both ways though. By adopting a British football club they also have to buy into how we do sport. When they show Newcastle matches in Saudi Arabia, they'll be seeing women at football games, probably the odd close up of someone swilling lager, etc. All this filters back into their society as well, hopefully it will improve it.

 

The alternative is to be like Isis or North Korea, and just ban everything and refuse interaction with the outside world full stop. Same goes for us, we could also, as a country, just tell Saudi Arabia to do one, but we don't, if anything they are key trade partners.

 

Does that mean their regime is any less reprehensible? No, but it does show that when we as a country aren't prepared to put our foot down because it suits our interests not to, then it's not the job of Newcastle fans to f*** over our own club to satisfy Martin Samuels and other c***s like him.

 

No one has said it's our responsibility of our fans to do anything tbf, just that we shouldn't be manipulated into excusing or glorifying their actions because they might improve the fortunes of our favourite football team.

 

The alternative is to be like Isis or North Korea, and just ban everything and refuse interaction with the outside world full stop. Same goes for us, we could also, as a country, just tell Saudi Arabia to do one, but we don't, if anything they are key trade partners.

 

Having interaction isn't the issue though, it's the nature of the interaction. If the interactions our country is having with the Saudi's was part of a U.N Human Rights improvement initiative or something, fair enough, but our country's interaction has been to sell them weapons so they can bomb children's hospitals in Yemen, and our club and city's interaction will likely be to overlook their human rights record because they've improved our material interests.

 

It works both ways though. By adopting a British football club they also have to buy into how we do sport. When they show Newcastle matches in Saudi Arabia, they'll be seeing women at football games, probably the odd close up of someone swilling lager, etc. All this filters back into their society as well, hopefully it will improve it.

 

I don't think we should underestimate how comfortable power is with having blatant double standards. The man who's buying the club who you say will have to buy in our way of doing sport, currently has a Saudi princess under house arrest for wanting exactly the reforms and improvements you're saying could filter back to their society and improve it.

 

Well, I am under no illusion that the Saudis have suddenly decided to overthrow everything they stand for and adopt western standards wholesale. They are still deeply invested in their own culture, the princess under house arrest is a prime example of it. But I still believe that being exposed to a British football club on their tv will also expose their public to rights they don't have at home. Maybe an unintended consequence which they would rather not entertain, but it's there nonetheless.

 

That said, I don't want to sugarcoat anything or justify what goes on over there. I just want owners who will invest properly in the city and NUFC, and put us back where we belong, and PIF are probably one of the few investors in this day and age who will be able to do it. I'm not going to start making excuses for their regime, but at the same time I will admit I am going to enjoy watching our team again, no two ways about it.

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