PIF, PCP, and RB Sports & Media

[TheInfiniteOdyssey]

Just now, madras said:

Poor return from Brentford, Norwich, Watford.  Like when we went down and Rafa's poor return from Villa, Sunderland and Norwich.

I mean, yeah that wasn’t great either was it?

 

Here’s hoping Howe gets the team clicking in the coming weeks with the results to boot.

 

Perhaps the Saudi camp after Leeds will get the squad up to a fluid understanding of what he wants to set out.

[madras]

2 minutes ago, TheInfiniteOdyssey said:

I mean, yeah that wasn’t great either was it?

 

Here’s hoping Howe gets the team clicking in the coming weeks with the results to boot.

 

Perhaps the Saudi camp after Leeds will get the squad up to a fluid understanding of what he wants to set out.

Understanding what's required/wanted/needed etc is one thing.....having the ability to do it is something else entirely. The rest of this window is massive for us.

[Jackie Broon]

1 hour ago, LV said:

Why though? 
 

The squad are dog dirt. He can’t even swap out underperforming players for better alternatives. They’re worse. 
 

Would you be able to coach a team in 10 games to perform better? Who would? Even Ferguson would struggle. We’re a championship team in all but name and need fresh, quality blood. 
 

Edit: I don’t know why I’m arguing. It’s all opinions isn’t it. We disagree and that’s cool. We all just want the best for us, god knows we’ve waited long enough. 

 

 

 

 

Because Steve fucking Bruce managed to keep this dog dirt squad up last season. We were drawing by fine margins under Bruce this season, it should only take a moderate improvement to turn those draws into wins. Howe hasn't managed to find that moderate improvement over Steve fucking Bruce, that is inexcusable.

 

 

Edited January 16, 2022 by Jackie Broon

[Pilko]

55 minutes ago, LV said:

Why though? 
 

The squad are dog dirt. He can’t even swap out underperforming players for better alternatives. They’re worse. 
 

Would you be able to coach a team in 10 games to perform better? Who would? Even Ferguson would struggle. We’re a championship team in all but name and need fresh, quality blood. 
 

Edit: I don’t know why I’m arguing. It’s all opinions isn’t it. We disagree and that’s cool. We all just want the best for us, god knows we’ve waited long enough. 

 

 

 

 

You, along with everyone else, were not saying this when Bruce was in post. It's revisionist twaddle designed to absolve Howe of any responsibility and I don't know why he's getting a completely free ride from so many. He's pissed away points along with the players.

[Mattoon]

The miasma of despair has had 14 years to settle over this club, in varying amounts and with the odd beam of sunlight flickering through. However the last 2 years really finished off the last glimmers of hope, don't forget Bruce had over £100m in new players that gave us a bounce until the stench of the place permeated them too. Let's not forget how this season started with Bruce, worse performances and worse results.

 

Howe might not have flipped the script but subtle changes are there, these just aren't the players he needs for how he wants us to play, plain and simple. It's OK to question why he hasn't been able to get a tune out of these players, why he's not managed to fortify their moral to see a game out but also be willing to see the change and give him a chance with his own players. He's turned losses into draws but he needs to turn draws into wins. We have to be ruthless in these next 2 weeks, give him the players to build an identity and then we can judge him.

[Wandy]

18 minutes ago, Pilko said:

 

You, along with everyone else, were not saying this when Bruce was in post. It's revisionist twaddle designed to absolve Howe of any responsibility and I don't know why he's getting a completely free ride from so many. He's pissed away points along with the players.

 

Yep, there is definitely some revisionism going on. People wanted Bruce out because "anyone could get better results with these players". Now that the new guy isnt getting better results its all because the players arent good enough and "Pep/Klopp couldn't do better" with them. It's bullshit. Howe got the job based on him saying in the interview that the team wasnt performing to the best of their ability and he could rectify that. So far that hasnt happened. And I doubt he just meant that he could just get them playing better but with similar results.

[LV]

33 minutes ago, Pilko said:

 

You, along with everyone else, were not saying this when Bruce was in post. It's revisionist twaddle designed to absolve Howe of any responsibility and I don't know why he's getting a completely free ride from so many. He's pissed away points along with the players.

Revisionist   Now that’s twaddle 

 

He’s been getting draws where Bruce would have lost. He’s also had a couple of months and no new players compared to Bruce and the pigshit he served up. 
 

New knickers please. 
 

 

[Kid Icarus]

Not sure you can talk about everyone when there were plenty that went on hiatus as soon as Bruce came in precisely because they knew he was shit and that our squad was shit.

 

It's not exactly a big deal that anyone saying Bruce should have been getting more out of the players was wrong either, being wrong on that doesn't stop Bruce being a shit manager overall any more than Howe actually getting the players to do the bare minimum (come in 5 days a week, work on tactics etc) makes him a good manager.

 

What's certain though is that what Howe achieved outside of Newcastle before coming here was much more impressive, more professional, with more attractive  football, and done in a much shorter space of time. Which is why he rightly gets more rope with most fans than Bruce got.

 

If you don't rate Howe that's absolutely fair enough, for me he's still largely an unknown entity outside of Bournemouth, but this whole crusade to try and tell people they're doing something wrong for not going in blindly rating like-for-like and ignoring absolutely all context outside of their time as Newcastle managers is asking people to be fools and trying to take them for fools.

 

It's just a continuation of the same routine from the Rafa days where we were supposed to ignore his trophy cabinet and only concentrate on what he was doing at Newcastle at that moment in time.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Kid Icarus

[MarkyMark]

4 hours ago, LV said:

Revisionist   Now that’s twaddle 

 

He’s been getting draws where Bruce would have lost. He’s also had a couple of months and no new players compared to Bruce and the pigshit he served up. 
 

New knickers please. 
 

 

Didn't we draw with Leeds, Watford and Southamption under Bruce?  The only game where you could reasonably say he's drawn games which Bruce would have lost is against Man Utd - and even then, at some point you'd expect even Bruce's team to get an unexpected point.  The form has been the same all year - draw games against the poor teams after being in a winning position, lose comfortably to every bugger else.  Zero change under Howe results-wise.

 

It absolutely is the case that there seemed to be a consensus - held by the local sports press as well as the support - that literally anyone would be doing better than Bruce with this squad.  Now, apparently it was always impossible.  But personally, I think we've a superior squad to at least Norwich - whose manager is outperforming Howe in the same timeframe.  And as pointed out by others, I'd be willing to bet that Howe's winning powerpoint showed how he'd get results from the current squad -  I bet it wasn't 'So this graph shows that this lot are shite and nailed-on to go down; give me 100m+ or you're knackered.  Next slide please Amanada ...'

 

This isn't a call for his sacking - but I'm lost by some of the defences of Howe's performance so far.  He doesn't seem to have identified many failings which could be corrected - an example from our past which springs to mind was Robson telling Shearer when he joined 'I've looked at your recent games, and you're making it too easy for the defenders.  You're dropping too deep - get facing the goal and get into their faces'.  Simple stuff, easily digested - and produced immediate results (Shearer had been poor for a while).  Ok, perhaps Robson / Shearer is an unfair comparison to the current lot, given their abilities and reputations - but surely similar is applicable in terms of simple instructions for immediate improvements.  Other than Joelinton, no other player has improved in any real way under Howe as far as I can tell.  The fitness levels and general style of play have improved - but we still collectively shit our pants defending leads in the last half an hour, dropping deeper and deeper, with complete inaction from the bench until the inevitable happens. 

 

I think there's more could be wrung from the current lot before they're rightly shown the door; I think more points may have been achieved under another manager.  Howe is who we have, and I hope the support inside the ground continues; but questioning him in places like this seems reasonable to me.  Not much point of a forum if we're all agreeing on everything.  And I do completely understand those looking to defend Howe; the defences of him are coming from a positive place.  I'm frustrated more than angry - and anger was my standing state under Bruce.

 

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by MarkyMark

[Awaymag]

Bruce was an awful manager - not likeable as a person and why people are arguing about his time here is really strange.  Before he came here, his managerial record reeked of relegation man or championship man.   His time at NUFC continued in the same vein, the football was awful, the way he talked and handled himself was appalling, and it was very clear in his final season, he was after the payoff and let the players fitness levels drop to an all time low.

 

Is Howe any better.   For me yes, the results are on a par but everything else he does is way way above what Bruce did.  Bruce was given time and Howe should be also.   Let see where we are at the end of the season before any real comparison can be made.

 

Bruce was really awful and his attitude from day 1, plus the fact the media tried to tell us differently to what our own eyes were seeing, make him one of the worst managers NUFC has ever had, IMHO

[Kid Icarus]

Because perfect shouldn't be the enemy of better and when a manager with a 20 year career of being absolutely shite is getting the players in 2-3 times a week and swanning off on holiday all the time, the bar for better is low. It also makes it more understandable that people were thinking binning Bruce was the silver bullet.

 

Getting someone in also means that they bring in a structure ahead of signing new players, which felt desperately needed under Rafa, never mind 3 years later when they're still here.

[The Prophet]

As someone who thought this squad was good enough Bruce and is willing to give Howe time, I don't consider myself as revisionist at all.

 

Howe took charge eight games into a season where players were tiring after sixty minutes every game, the defence was a disorganised mess, coaching was non-existent and ultimately we hadn't won a game. The momentum was going in one direction and this was entirely Steve Bruce's fault.

 

I know some here disagree, but performances under Howe have got better and the stats are there to back this up. Fitness and intensity has improved, the shape of the team is better and with a bit more confidence and belief, we'd be a few points better off. The results aren't there yet, but to me at least it no longer feels like we're in total free fall.

 

Without banging the same drum, I didn't quite realise just how some players had regressed in such a short space of time. Regardless of what shape he plays, Howe is currently having to play the likes of Lescalles and Longstaff in key positions and they are simply no longer good enough at this level. They're also very clearly used to a certain style of football and much prefer to sit off and allow the opposition to dominate the ball, this shows as default when their natural reaction is to fall deeper and deeper the longer a games goes on.

 

That's not to say Howe

is entirely blameless. He took too long to realise Darlow, Ritchie and Clark aren't good enough. He also seems to be struggling to strike the correct balance between defence and attack. We either look solid and toothless or gung-ho and wide open. Once he gets it wrong there are so few options from the bench it becomes difficult to change.

 

Having said all that football is ultimately a results business and if he doesn't start seeing some wins, eyebrows will be raised. For me though, ten games isn't long enough to judge a manager who inherited the absolute dumpster fire that Howe did. It does feel like certain fans who were opposed to the appointment couldn't wait to stick the knife in though, which is a little bit disappointing to see.

[JonBez comesock]

14 hours ago, Awaymag said:

Obviously as NUFC fans, we want the same thing, team to be proud of and hopefully a successful one as well.   Reading the comments over the past few weeks,  I thing the overriding thing that NUFC fans have had for the past 14 year is Fear and we still have that today.  Let me explain:

 

• During the Ashley years, NUFC fans had the 'fear' that he would never sell and we would be stuck with him, and drift into obsucurity.
• During the last two years when the Saudi takeover was up in the air, NUFC fans had the 'fear' that the takeover would never be approved.
• Now, with the takeover happening, NUFC fans have the 'fear' of relegation as they think in the back of their mind that PIF will get frustrated and walk away.

The media knows the 'fear' of the fans and are playing on it, Inter rumours, negative slant on anything consortium does etc.     Its that fear which is driving most of the fans discussion about, need to have this in place, need to be quicker at transfers etc.  We are scared that PIF will not follow through with their plans due to this short term blip (relegation).     To PIF however if they do have a 10 year plan for NUFC, then whilst relegation is a set back, that's all it is.   If they are intelligent people, and Im sure they are, then they would have accounted for the real possibility of relegation, in their ten year plan anyway.

 

What Im trying to say is whilst now for fans this is a nightmare, for PIF and the consortium, it doesn't matter so much as long as it doesn't torpedo the 10 year plan (and it shouldn't or its not a robust plan anyway).

 

Keep the faith and try to step back if you feel the 'fear' is becoming too much!  HWTL

This sums me up 

 

Fear the premier league will somehow change the rules - not allow us to go back up if we go down 

 

Plus the fear PIF will either walk away completely  or buy someone else and they become their MAIN PROJECT and we become the feeder club 

[Kid Icarus]

4 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I know Howe is a better manager, and Bruce was dog. But he definitely had the “we’ve spent 100m on this squad” used as a reason why his performance was so bad. It’s all in his thread. He’s a terrible manager and a terrible guy but there has been a shift to use the squad as an excuse for Howe. Without a doubt.

 

You can read the Bruce thread and see for you yourself. Tbh to @Wallsendmaghe said he thought Howe would be the wrong move because his ideas would take too long to implement to keep up us up. That’s how I feel too 

 

Not saying it didn't happen, just think it's not that big a deal and changes nothing that those people were wrong on that. Didn't loads of people stop posting in the Football section when Bruce came in as well?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[BGRM]

7 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

I know Howe is a better manager, and Bruce was dog. But he definitely had the “we’ve spent 100m on this squad” used as a reason why his performance was so bad. It’s all in his thread. He’s a terrible manager and a terrible guy but there has been a shift to use the squad as an excuse for Howe. Without a doubt.

 

You can read the Bruce thread and see for you yourself. Tbh to @Wallsendmaghe said he thought Howe would be the wrong move because his ideas would take too long to implement to keep up us up. That’s how I feel too 

Yeah I agree. I just don’t think Howe will turn things around, especially without quite a few more quality signings. Hope I’m wrong because I like his attitude and he obviously has something about him, but sooner or later Howe will probably need replacing.  

[Yorkie]

10 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

As someone who thought this squad was good enough Bruce and is willing to give Howe time, I don't consider myself as revisionist at all.

 

Howe took charge eight games into a season where players were tiring after sixty minutes every game, the defence was a disorganised mess, coaching was non-existent and ultimately we hadn't won a game. The momentum was going in one direction and this was entirely Steve Bruce's fault.

 

I know some here disagree, but performances under Howe have got better and the stats are there to back this up. Fitness and intensity has improved, the shape of the team is better and with a bit more confidence and belief, we'd be a few points better off. The results aren't there yet, but to me at least it no longer feels like we're in total free fall.

 

Without banging the same drum, I didn't quite realise just how some players had regressed in such a short space of time. Regardless of what shape he plays, Howe is currently having to play the likes of Lescalles and Longstaff in key positions and they are simply no longer good enough at this level. They're also very clearly used to a certain style of football and much prefer to sit off and allow the opposition to dominate the ball, this shows as default when their natural reaction is to fall deeper and deeper the longer a games goes on.

 

That's not to say Howe is entirely blameless. He took too long to realise Darlow, Ritchie and Clark aren't good enough. He also seems to be struggling to strike the correct balance between defence and attack. We either look solid and toothless or gung-ho and wide open. Once he gets it wrong there are so few options from the bench it becomes difficult to change.

 

Having said all that football is ultimately a results business and if he doesn't start seeing some wins, eyebrows will be raised. For me though, ten games isn't long enough to judge a manager who inherited the absolute dumpster fire that Howe did. It does feel like certain fans who were opposed to the appointment couldn't wait to stick the knife in though, which is a little bit disappointing to see.

 

Agree with every word of that. The part in bold is something I've come to realise too. Players who I thought were good, just aren't. 

[Dr.Spaceman]

15 minutes ago, The Prophet said:

As someone who thought this squad was good enough Bruce and is willing to give Howe time, I don't consider myself as revisionist at all.

 

Howe took charge eight games into a season where players were tiring after sixty minutes every game, the defence was a disorganised mess, coaching was non-existent and ultimately we hadn't won a game. The momentum was going in one direction and this was entirely Steve Bruce's fault.

 

I know some here disagree, but performances under Howe have got better and the stats are there to back this up. Fitness and intensity has improved, the shape of the team is better and with a bit more confidence and belief, we'd be a few points better off. The results aren't there yet, but to me at least it no longer feels like we're in total free fall.

 

Without banging the same drum, I didn't quite realise just how some players had regressed in such a short space of time. Regardless of what shape he plays, Howe is currently having to play the likes of Lescalles and Longstaff in key positions and they are simply no longer good enough at this level. They're also very clearly used to a certain style of football and much prefer to sit off and allow the opposition to dominate the ball, this shows as default when their natural reaction is to fall deeper and deeper the longer a games goes on.

 

That's not to say Howe

is entirely blameless. He took too long to realise Darlow, Ritchie and Clark aren't good enough. He also seems to be struggling to strike the correct balance between defence and attack. We either look solid and toothless or gung-ho and wide open. Once he gets it wrong there are so few options from the bench it becomes difficult to change.

 

Having said all that football is ultimately a results business and if he doesn't start seeing some wins, eyebrows will be raised. For me though, ten games isn't long enough to judge a manager who inherited the absolute dumpster fire that Howe did. It does feel like certain fans who were opposed to the appointment couldn't wait to stick the knife in though, which is a little bit disappointing to see.

 

Hard to disagree with any of that. I used to think Ciaran Clark was massively underrated 

[MarkyMark]

The regression part is true - and no doubt down to pisspoor management and coaching from ‘the Steves’.  Bruce sits in with Souness and Allardyce as the men I’ve liked the least in job - lazy, feckless, passive-aggressive, whingy; a wanker with that unlovely pairing of a victim complex and misplaced arrogance.  I loathe the cunt, and try not to give him space inside my head.

 

So for me, the bar is pretty low.  It is true, and was always true, that pretty much anyone would do a better job - and Howe is for me.  I suppose the argument is; how much better?  And how much better could / should it be?

[MarkyMark]

NB I’ve been disappointed so far because I did think Howe was a decent appointment all things considered.  I think he should be doing better.  I also think he deserves more time - but I also think we’ve spent too long under Ashley, where people have got used to useless managers being given far, far too much time - longer than any other club would have ever allowed.  It’s all part of the healing process post-Ashley; learning how to become a normal club again.  Expecting that reasonable expectations are met

[r0cafella]

2 minutes ago, ManDoon said:

That  isn't a bad opinion though, in fact if you look at his thread most people said the same. He is/was a solid pro who could come in do a job and sometimes get a goal.

He’s always been a walking mistake, he’s just a good example of Rafa getting more out of the Sum of the parts. 
 

 

[Fantail Breeze]

We’ve scored 8 goals and conceded 20 in his games so far, achieving 6 points.

 

We continue to leak goals towards the end of games and drop points from winning positions. 

 

Our attacking play has no cohesion and I don’t understand what we’re doing at times. ASM had about five different positions on Saturday, at one point he was upfront and Wood was on the wing.

 

Our players look like they’ve never played together before, which makes me think they’re struggling with the instructions. Although I thought I saw some positive signs with Trippier and Fraser linking up at the weekend.

 

Other than Joelinton I can’t name a single player who has improved under Howe.

 

There are clear issues with the fitness of the squad which will take a while to improve. But I’m not seeing this improvement that other people are.

 

I hope it’s a case that Howe’s methods will take a while to land, like Rafa’s. In addition to improvements to fitness and new players coming in, we will hopefully see a stronger end to the season.

[Kid Icarus]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

Actually not as many as you'd think, no.

 

I know Dave, Ronaldo, me, Hans, Rich and a few others who regularly stuck up for Rafa were gone around when Bruce came in. Easy to say in hindsight like, but Ashley's financial hamstringing would have still been a big problem despite Bruce still being a joke of a manager.

 

Can understand why people would have thought he could be getting more considering the half arsed job he put in and Ashley spending big (on his scale) vs him making Rafa rummage around the damaged goods bin.

[Guest neesy111]

Ronaldo was banned btw.

[Yorkie]

1 minute ago, Fantail Breeze said:

We’ve scored 8 goals and conceded 20 in his games so far, achieving 6 points.

 

We continue to leak goals towards the end of games and drop points from winning positions. 

 

Our attacking play has no cohesion and I don’t understand what we’re doing at times. ASM had about five different positions on Saturday, at one point he was upfront and Wood was on the wing.

 

Our players look like they’ve never played together before, which makes me think they’re struggling with the instructions. Although I thought I saw some positive signs with Trippier and Fraser linking up at the weekend.

 

Other than Joelinton I can’t name a single player who has improved under Howe.

 

There are clear issues with the fitness of the squad which will take a while to improve. But I’m not seeing this improvement that other people are.

 

I hope it’s a case that Howe’s methods will take a while to land, like Rafa’s. In addition to improvements to fitness and new players coming in, we will hopefully see a stronger end to the season.

 

Don't agree with that. Maxi certainly wasn't all over the place like you're suggesting there. Was almost exclusively on the left wing but for the odd occasion he drifted, as you'd expect him to given the type of player he is. 

 

If there's one thing thing team does show it's a broad tactical understanding. Pressing has improved a lot and the balance is getting there, especially with a proper LB in there (I actually thought Dummett had a good game). They're just not effective as a collective, which is down to the quality of the players, the mentality of the players, and the choices of the manager. 

 

So there's nothing to write home about, which we all know, but I don't think you can level disorganisation at them. 

[r0cafella]

1 minute ago, ManDoon said:

He's definitely got a mistake in him but he was a solid back up CB, for low money and able to step in and do a job,

Aye, he was fine for a back up on a budget in well managed system. 
 

he’s just terrifying if he’s in a poorly managed system and expected to start games. 
 

on another note, Rafa did such a good job flipping players and getting the best out of them. If Ashley wasn’t as thick as mince we would have continued in this vein on a small budget and be upper mid table. He had 100% buy in from the squad at the time and was slowly improving us.